Ray Moon, warrior, on Episode 207

A warrior in all respects, Ray Moon fought in Vietnam and continued fighting for our rights when he returned. Land warriors were as important in the beginning as they are now. Ray was inducted in the Off Road Motorsports Hall of Fame in 1979. Ray is why we say; legends live at ORMHOF.org.  Be sure to tune in on your favorite podcast app.

3:12 – I had my first encounter with a Jeep in Vietnam and I didn’t know how to drive the damn thing 

7:41 – it worked out very well, the military structure, I got it, I grew up.             

16:29 – I live in Simi Valley now and volunteer at the Reagan Library, the Presidential Library 

29:11 – PTSD is what they call it today, and we all have problems with that, I was no different

35:43 – I became the conservation chairman for Cal Four Wheel Drive

41:23 – There was a woman who was so happy we were closed down so she could take her Buick out and enjoy the posies, and the BLM guy was like, no, if we restrict them, we restrict you

47:16 – we wanted to take a reasonable attitude toward all that

53:51 – you don’t go into any of this stuff for the glory

Special thanks to ORMHOF.org for support and sponsorship of this podcast.

Be sure to listen on your favorite podcast app.

Transcript

[00:00:01.040] 

Welcome to Conversations with Big Rich. This is an interview-style podcast. Those interviewed are all involved in the off-road industry. Being involved, like all of my guests are, is a lifestyle, not just a job. I talk to past, present, and future legends, as well as business owners, employees, media, and land use warriors, men and women who have found their way into this exciting and addictive lifestyle we call off-road. We discuss their personal history, struggles, successes, and reboots. We dive into what drives them to stay active and off-road. We all hope to shed some light on how to find a path into this world that we live and love and call off-road.

[00:00:46.890] 

This episode of Conversations with Big Rich is brought to you by the Off-Road Motorsports Hall of Fame. The mission of the Hall of Fame is to educate and inspire present and future generations of the off-road community by celebrating the achievements elements of those who came before. We invite you to help fulfill the mission of the Off-Road Motorsports Hall of Fame. Join, partner, or donate today. Legends live at ormhof.org.

[00:01:15.670] - Big Rich Klein

On today's episode of Conversations with Big Rich, my guest is the 1979 Ormhoff Inductee, Ray Moon.

[00:01:23.220] - Big Rich Klein

Ray started his career in off-road while in Vietnam, serving his time in the army. Ray fought for public lands as the conservation chairman and then President of Cal Fourwheel Drive. Ray, it is so good to have you on this podcast. I'm looking forward to finding out about your history and everything that you've done in the off-road industry. And Thank you for being a guest.

[00:01:48.160] - Ray Moon

Well, Rich, it's an honor to be with you. I thank you. I didn't see this one coming, but glad to be here. Thank you very much. Yeah.

[00:01:59.670] - Big Rich Klein

So let's get started at the very beginning. Where were you born and raised?

[00:02:06.420] - Ray Moon

Well, they told me I was born in New York City, Manhattan. Raised, my dad was in the movie business. He was an executive with Universal Pictures, so we spent some time in Chicago when I was really young, and then came back to New York, and I grew up in Connecticut, left Connecticut when I was Well, 15. I moved down to Kentucky. My dad died. I lost my dad when I was 10, and sadly, I moved down to Kentucky. When we got remarried, and that didn't work out. So we came out here to California when I was about 16, I guess, about a year later. Then I've been out here ever since, moved to Riverside. Ramona High School at Riverside, and Kicked around for a year or two and did a little traveling around the country, drove around and went in the army, '65.

[00:03:10.780] - Big Rich Klein

What was '65 that you went in? Okay.

[00:03:12.980] - Ray Moon

Yeah, I went in the army in '65.  And that was in the middle of Vietnam and all that. I ended up going to Vietnam. Actually, I went to officer candidate's school. The army, in their infinite wisdom, decided I should become an officer, so I did. I went to Officer Candidate's School six months. In any event, I ended up going to Vietnam in November '67. And it was over there that I actually encountered my first Jeep. You know that I had a Jeep as a lieutenant. I didn't know how to drive the damn thing. It was all the mud and everything else like that. And I just I had never given one of those. I was up in a very muddy place called Camp Eagle and got it stuck because I couldn't find out how to operate the four-wheel drive.

[00:04:15.840] - Big Rich Klein

I take it you figured it out, though.

[00:04:19.250] - Ray Moon

Well, my guess is somebody, I either figured it out or somebody came along and said, All right, you stupid lieutenant here. 21 years old and a gold bar on my collar. I looked back and laughed. Now, it wasn't so fun then, but raining and four feet of mud, it seems like. In any event, I did better the second, third, fourth day and so on. It progresses from there. But I came back in November '68 after I was there for a free year. Met some folks and got married. The brother-in-law and the family were old-time jeepers and got me involved in the four wheeling. This would have been about '69-ish or so, '69, '70, somewhere in there. Started doing it then, going out and had a lot of fun.

[00:05:30.440] - Big Rich Klein

Let's jump into those early years before you got to California. Let's explore those a little bit. So you were born in Manhattan, and then you moved to Connecticut. But how long were you in Manhattan?

[00:05:51.200] - Ray Moon

Just an infinite time. I don't remember any time in Manhattan. I've been in Manhattan a number of times since of course. But we lived in, my first memory was really Chicago area, outside of Chicago suburbs. And then about 1950 or so, '49, '50, I was probably, what, four years old or whatever. I remember early Chicago area then moving to Connecticut, Westport, Connecticut, where I grew up. And so I was, say, four or five years old, up until I was 15 or so. Went to school. I actually went to school with Donald Trump, believe it or not. Wow, really? I don't know how many people are going to be happy or sad about that, but it is what it is. I was a New York Military Academy up in the north of New York, just a little bit north of West Point, in Cornwall. Cornwall in Hudson is the name of the town. Okay. I was 13 He and I are the same age. We were the same age. But I had skipped a grade somewhere along the line. So I was a grade ahead of him. I was in the ninth grade, I think. Yeah, I was in the ninth grade, and he was in the eighth grade when I first met him.

[00:07:19.440] - Ray Moon

And of course, I was there. I was only there for two years. He ended up graduating from New York Military Academy. And at that point, that's about when I moved down Kentucky, so I left. The family left, and I wasn't able to finish out.

[00:07:35.220] - Big Rich Klein

What was it like going to school in a military school?

[00:07:41.460] - Ray Moon

Well, I had a little I had a little trouble after I had lost my dad when I was 10 years old. It turned into a small rebel. I was pretty unhappy about all that. I probably needed to get straightened out a little bit and worked for a lot. And actually they did. It worked. It worked very well. My second year, it worked. The military-Structure? I got it. I grew up. I got it. I said, Okay, Ray, you got to start getting real about life. So I put it behind you. And so the discipline helped me a lot. And I actually like the military. When I was in the army, I like the military. I like that lifestyle.

[00:08:36.030] - Big Rich Klein

That structure and discipline and everything.

[00:08:38.610] - Ray Moon

Yeah, sure. But the military school brought me back into reality. So it was a good thing. But the military, it was a lot of drill and a regimened situation. Sports? As you might imagine. Sports, football, and swimming. Football and swimming, primarily. That thing. I didn't know. I knew Trump, and of course, everybody was in a fairly small school. I don't remember exactly how many people were there. The kids were there, but everybody knew everybody, depending on whatever grade you were in. It doesn't matter. Everybody knew one another. We didn't always hang out together, but I knew him. People asked me what he was like, and I'd say, Well, he was like a 13-year-old kid. What were you like when you were 13?

[00:09:39.330] - Big Rich Klein

I probably needed military school.

[00:09:42.970] - Ray Moon

Well, yeah, precisely. And maybe he did, too. So that's the reality of it. He probably needed a little bring it up as well.

[00:09:57.960] - Big Rich Klein

Right.

[00:10:00.380] - Ray Moon

But, yeah, that's that. And then coming out here in high school, and Bowling Green, Kentucky, was interesting.

[00:10:12.480] - Big Rich Klein

What was interesting about Bowling Green?

[00:10:15.800] - Ray Moon

Well, a different growing up in Connecticut, I knew nothing, or knew very little about the South. So that's a whole different culture.

[00:10:25.590] - Big Rich Klein

Yes.

[00:10:27.440] - Ray Moon

Yeah. So there was How do I say this in today's world? When I got there, there were still fight in Negro, quote unquote, restaurants.

[00:10:43.060] - Big Rich Klein

Very segregated still, yes.

[00:10:45.240] - Ray Moon

Yeah, and so on, those kinds of things. And we're talking '62, I guess, '61, '62, somewhere in there.

[00:10:58.240] - Big Rich Klein

Being in Connecticut, you weren't used to that at all.

[00:11:02.860] - Ray Moon

Oh, my God, no. We had... No, not at all. Just the opposite. We had friends who were of all colors. It didn't matter to us. People are people. It's always been like that. I've never lost that early upbringing. People are people.

[00:11:28.150] - Big Rich Klein

It's not what's on the outside, it's what's on inside.

[00:11:31.390] - Ray Moon

Absolutely. Treat me nice and I'll treat you nice, and so on and so forth. It's just the same thing, and I've never, never lost that. It's your early upbringing. Maybe one of the most chilling things I've ever seen in my life. When I was in Virginia in the army, I was up in Richmond, Virginia one time. It was evening, during the summertime, maybe six, seven o'clock at night, probably seven. And I actually saw a a pickup truck with about four KKK members with their white robes following in the breeze. Wow. Yeah. And that would have been 60, probably 66. Yeah, in Richmond, that would have been probably '66. Yeah, in Richmond. That would have been '67, excuse me. Probably '67. That has stayed with me, and it's a very chilling site, and it's pretty... Anyway.

[00:12:39.860] - Big Rich Klein

Right. There's- You can only imagine, but it's as late as '67, and I don't know what's going on down there today.

[00:12:46.690] - Ray Moon

I've been through the south, of course, recently, two years ago. But anyway, pretty chilling.

[00:12:56.960] - Big Rich Klein

Right. So then you go from Bowling Green, Kentucky. You moved to Riverside, California.

[00:13:04.380] - Ray Moon

Yeah, Riverside high school, and finished up high school and then kicked around and went in the army in '65, November '65. And I was basic training, AIT, I was Infantry. But ultimately, when they sent me to Officer Canada School, I ended up in the logistics world. They felt that I would be better there. They were probably right. During, I was in Vietnam from November '67, November '68. I went through the Ted offensive. Actually, I don't know, you just get through the year. And I guess the worst part about it was coming home and the change in culture and the the attitude of the people that you loved, some of the people that I loved. I lost a girlfriend because of that, a six year girlfriend. We were going to get married and her, she had been watching the newsreels during the time that I was over there and and wondered whether I was killing any babies, if you know what I mean. And the answer to that, of course, is no. But that's what they were I was indoctrinating everybody with. So it was tragic.

[00:14:37.130] - Big Rich Klein

So what student were you in school? Say, in those, once you got to California, were you a good student or were you looking to get out?

[00:14:56.330] - Ray Moon

I was always pretty bored with school, to be honest with you. I mean, most of my senior year was spent on the golf course. I decided I didn't play golf by then. Took it up. But I was always a pretty good student, so I could get by pretty well. Okay. Okay. And when I came back, I wanted to obviously go to work. I got a job because my dad had been an executive with Universal. I was able to have an in with the other Universal. They got me a job at the theater out in Riverside and worked there for about six, seven months. And then they brought me in to Los Angeles to work in the Universal Distribution Center in a field distribution in Los Angeles, and I did that, and that started my career in the field of film distribution and working with theaters. I was not in production at all. Okay. Primarily, distributing film from Universal. Then after a while, maybe 10, 11 years or so, 12 years, got into an exhibition. I represented theaters buying film for a certain number of movie theaters down in the Oceanside. I got a job offer down to Oceanside, and I moved down there in '76, I think it was.

[00:16:29.440] - Ray Moon

Okay. Yeah, And so I did that. So about 23 years in the movie business got. And then that went south in the early '90s and found myself without a job for about a year and a half and ended up going to work for Camp Pendleton. I was also a sailor. I'd learned quite a bit about sailing. I'd sailed when I was a kid and became a charter captain, Coast Guard charter captain. Okay. And I became the Harbor Master there at Camp Pendleton for 11 years. And then they moved me up to the beach up at San Onofrey and became the general manager up there, and I retired in 2010. And since then, I played a little golf and worked with veterans, which I was with an organization called Run For The Wall. It's about 1,800 guys, motor cycles that travel from Ontario, California to the Vietnam Wall in Washington. On a holiday weekend, and I was a support vehicle for about 400 of those guys. And I did that for about seven, six, seven years. And up until about two years ago, I think it was the last run I did. And then I live here in Seamy Valley now, and I'm a volunteer at the Reagan Library, the presidential library here in Seamy Valley.

[00:18:07.820] - Ray Moon

I'm a docent. I give tours and help people. So I'm a volunteer at the at the library here in Seamy with Ronald Reagan, and I enjoy it very much. It's strictly a volunteer situation. I've been doing it for about a year and a half now.

[00:18:29.920] - Big Rich Klein

When you guys moved out to California, I read that your mom invested or became partners in a motorcycle business?

[00:18:43.540] - Ray Moon

Prado Sports cycle in Norco, I guess, technically, in the Corona area.

[00:18:49.580] - Big Rich Klein

Okay. How did that all come about?

[00:18:51.400] - Ray Moon

Don't know. She met this guy named George Harding. He was probably looking for an investor. Mom had a money. And he, in any event, she probably made the deal, well, I'll invest if you hire my kid. So I learned a little bit more about motorcycles and rode some and worked on them. And there was a guy named Homer Stapps. I don't know if some of your folks might know that name, Homer Stapps. He was an old flat tracker. He raced in Ascot years ago, back in the, probably in the '50s, '40s and '50s. Okay. Interesting guy. But anyway, but yeah, that was some of my early motorcycle stuff.

[00:19:42.360] - Big Rich Klein

So that was your first foray into, that was easy for me to say, into off road? Then was that early motorcycle?

[00:19:54.560] - Ray Moon

Yeah, I suppose that's fair to say, I guess. I took some of the smaller bikes, the 80 and 110, 120 horsepower, Yalaha's and and stuff like that. Not so much the street. The biggest bike I ever rode was a Norton 750 back then. Right.

[00:20:14.790] - Big Rich Klein

That was a good size bike.

[00:20:15.120] - Ray Moon

I would take the smaller bikes off road and go, well, anywhere on the Riverside, Corona area, a lot of open fields back there, and trails and whatnot. Still climbing, what have you, I'm not sure. Okay.

[00:20:33.690] - Big Rich Klein

Are you moving around a lot? Are you walking or something? You mean right now? Yeah, right now. Okay. It just sounded like there was a lot of movement.

[00:20:48.580] - Ray Moon

Okay. No, sorry.

[00:20:49.760] - Big Rich Klein

No, no worries. Okay, then the the motor cycles, you were working there at the motorcycle shop. And then was that your only employment in the morning?

[00:21:03.430] - Ray Moon

At that time, yeah, I was probably, say, 18, 19 years old. Okay.

[00:21:11.330] - Big Rich Klein

And then from there, you got into the military?

[00:21:16.320] - Ray Moon

Yeah, pretty much. I think I had another job in there off and on. I worked at a factory, Hunter Engineering. Okay. But yeah. But I always, yeah, November I went in. It was during the draft, I went in and joined. I was R. A. I was joined in November '65, three-year commitment, but ended up as a joint in the Infantry. I was 11 Bravo, the MOS, but ended up, like I said, as a logistics officer commissioned in February '67, I think. Yeah, that's how it's right.

[00:21:57.920] - Big Rich Klein

Okay, and Was that... I had some relatives, cousins, that were stationed in Vietnam. And to them, they told me it was a heck of a culture shock going in country like that. And did you feel that way, too?

[00:22:22.120] - Ray Moon

Are you kidding me?

[00:22:23.760] - Big Rich Klein

It's like going from Southern California to on the moon.

[00:22:30.460] - Ray Moon

It's a total culture shock. I tell you, you get off of there, you pulled in the Saigon, Thomson Ute, Airbase or Benoît or wherever. And we get in the... It's six o'clock in the morning and they open the door to the plane and everybody's a little apprehensive, shall we say. And I remember I was about a third of the way back on the plane on the port on the left-hand side. And the heat comes back to plane. It's like the temperature came back from a comfortable, I don't know, 68 degrees or 70 degrees, whatever they keep the plane at, down to 85, back up to 85 in about four seconds.

[00:23:28.350] - Big Rich Klein

And the humidity.

[00:23:29.180] - Ray Moon

And it got warmer. Yeah, then it got warmer from there, and then 6 o'clock in the morning. And then you step forward and whatever, you finally get to the door, and then you take a whiff, a smell, you smell the country, and you go, I think I really made a mistake here, because I actually volunteered to go to Vietnam. So that's what my thought is. I may have screwed up here. I may If this is what it's going to smell like, and it did the whole year, then it's a pretty foul smelling place when you, at least it was back then. I've seen pictures now. I've seen pictures now. It's totally changed But back then, it was very... Oh, golly. It was just a mess. It was like a third-world country. Absolutely.

[00:24:25.640] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, absolutely. And The Jeep, the first time you got in the Jeep and you said you couldn't shift it and you were in the mud and all that. So you were a fresh lieutenant at that point, and they just handed you the keys to the Jeep and said, Here you go?

[00:24:50.170] - Ray Moon

Pretty much. I had been a lieutenant. I went through a... I stayed in Virginia after I became an officer in February '67. I stayed in Virginia for six months, putting another class of officers through. So I drilled sergeant, if you will, and drill lieutenant, I guess you might say. They called us TAC officers. So six months, I stayed in training, continued training. And the only way to get out of that cycle back then was to go to Vietnam. So that's what I did, because I just couldn't see myself spending another year and something in the military, running on the hills of Virginia training officers. So I wanted to do something different. And so I did have a little time as a lieutenant, but anyway, when I got over there, then I went to a place called Da Nang, which is up in the northern portion of South Vietnam. It's called ICOR. And I worked for a lieutenant colonel and he sent me on up to the north of that, up towards the DMZ. So I was in a place called Phu Ba, Dung Ha. Your listeners that are familiar with that know that it's... You can see North Vietnam from Dung Ha.

[00:26:15.660] - Ray Moon

So you're right there on the northern border in the middle of the war, because the Chad offensive was February of 1968, and I had been there about three months by then, two or three months. But yeah, so I was in the middle. There was a battle of Hue, H-U-E, which was the largest battle of the entire war, I believe. It's involved with that. But yeah, and that's all in that same area where the Jeep was and everything. So yeah. Okay.

[00:26:52.740] - Big Rich Klein

And then you come back to the States and you You pushed a lot of information into a short period there. Got married, got into four-wheel drive. Sounded like it was a four-wheel drive family that you married into. And then working at Universal. Let's stretch How about you? Can you share that out a little bit. You came back to the States, came back to Riverside. And what was it like stepping off that plane back on good old USA soil?

[00:27:30.600] - Ray Moon

Another major adjustment. A little... I remember looking at the news and there was a, I guess, I don't know if it was a teacher or a student. I think maybe a teacher, a professor, supposedly, at UCLA, I think her name was Angela Davis.

[00:27:53.940] - Big Rich Klein

Oh, yes.

[00:27:55.890] - Ray Moon

And she stood on the steps of UCLA and and yelled out in front of the TV cameras, I am a Communist. And we had just been fighting the communists for a whole year. And I made the off hand remark, I said, well, if you take her 10,000 miles away, we just shoot her in the head, not even think about it. And that's true.

[00:28:25.360] - Big Rich Klein

Right.

[00:28:26.230] - Ray Moon

Well, people tell me today, oh, my God, that's all true. And naturally, the family, the girlfriend and everything thought I was a monster, but I didn't say anything that was untrue. And so it's a whole different. I had to readjust back to the real world, this world, from a world that was totally different from the one I had left a year ago.

[00:28:59.950] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, especially since back then, everybody coming back was looked at as, like you said, did you kill babies?

[00:29:11.150] - Ray Moon

I did get... Nobody ever spit at me. They've asked me about that. Understand that, well, so nobody ever said, nobody ever spit at me, nobody ever threw anything at me. They did ask me, I've been asked if I killed any babies. And of course, that's That's absolutely not true. But so that takes a while. And then after it only takes one or two or three times to figure out that maybe you shouldn't tell anybody where you were. And so then you shut down and you say, well, where are you been? I said, well, I've been traveling or whatever, you know what thing. You just don't tell anybody where you were. Well, that doesn't work very well. And so for 25, 30 years, that's what you do Which then leads to what? Ptsd is what they call it today, right? And we all have problems with that. And so I was no different in the, well, 20 years ago now or something like that. After being coerced into going to the Veterans Administration, which I'm happy to have done, they decided that I had a little touch of that, more than a little touch of that.

[00:30:28.230] - Ray Moon

And so I can talk about that today, but I couldn't talk about that 25 years ago, if you know what I mean. Yes. Because you just shut up and you shut down. And that's not the right thing to do. Those kids that are coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan and so on and so forth today are being counseled properly. But we were not counseled at all 50 years ago. So we live and learn.

[00:30:59.670] - Big Rich Klein

Right. And there's still a big issue with those kids coming back nowadays.

[00:31:06.210] - Ray Moon

Of course, of course, it's not an easy transition. No, it's not. And the difference is, I was there for a year. Now, some of the guys in Vietnam would extend or go and spend two or three or four tours over there. They could extend for six months or they could extend for a year. So some guys spent like three or four years over there. Can you imagine what what their little brain was like? But the kids today, they're doing... I understand that because I work on Camp Pendleton, they were doing, I think it was seven or eight month tours, but they were doing it. They do eight months, then come back here for four months and go back for eight months. So they were doing repeat tours all the time. So some of those kids were over there five, six times over a period of And that's a huge impact on somebody. Right.

[00:32:05.920] - Big Rich Klein

Especially when over there, most of those places, everybody's trying to kill you.

[00:32:12.250] - Ray Moon

Oh, absolutely. And it's, well, war isn't a lot of fun. That's what you're doing. If you jump into a snake, guess what? They're all trying to bite you. So it's the same thing. Right.

[00:32:27.120] - Big Rich Klein

So then you're Your six-year relationship with the girlfriend ended, and I take it you met your current wife after that?

[00:32:39.710] - Ray Moon

Well, no, that would be my wife number one.

[00:32:42.850] - Big Rich Klein

Okay. Then you met wife number one. That would be my wife number one.

[00:32:45.500] - Ray Moon

All right. Yeah. That lasted about 10 years. Okay.

[00:32:53.600] - Big Rich Klein

Any children from that? No. No. Okay. No. And you were working for University Universal Studios?

[00:33:01.810] - Ray Moon

Yeah. But you were in distribution? Yeah. I worked there, Universal, I don't know, four years, five years, four years, something like that. Then got an independent distribution, which I liked a little bit more because it was less structured and I learned a lot. And just overall, it was a good business to be in. I liked it a lot. But there was a lot in the early Well, in the late '80s, I guess, there was, I took a job back up into, I had gone down Oceanside to book those theaters, so we had a bunch of theaters that I was buying film for down in the same, primarily San Diego area, Riverside and so on. And then we got a job offer to go back to Hollywood, back to Century at the time, and worked there, became a sales manager for the country for an independent company for about four or five years, and in '91 or '02, that went south and became unemployed. And then went to got a job at Camp Pendleton as working at their boat marina. They had a they still have a boat marina there on Camp Pendleton, sailboats and powerboats and that thing.

[00:34:34.400] - Ray Moon

And I had a I've gone to school and gotten a master's license from the Coast Guard. So I had a hundred ton master's license, both power and sail from the Coast Guard in 84, I think it was 84, 85. So I spent a lot of time on the water at that point. Gave up four wheel drive stuff in in the early '80s. So I had done the four-wheel drive stuff for about 10, 12 years. And then the divorce in '80, '81 led me down another path, and that's how I jumped on the boats.

[00:35:18.180] - Big Rich Klein

Interesting. So you got out of off road in the '80s, okay?

[00:35:24.440] - Ray Moon

Yeah.

[00:35:25.950] - Big Rich Klein

You were in the '80s. I mean, once you got home in the '70s, You were jeeping, I take it, or off roading. I won't say jeep because who knows? You may have been in a Toyota.

[00:35:41.010] - Ray Moon

No, I was jeep.

[00:35:43.620] - Big Rich Klein

Jeep, okay. And you became the conservation chairman for Cal Four Wheel Drive?

[00:35:49.910] - Ray Moon

Yeah, I sure did. Yeah, a guy named Harry Bushert, who was also in the Off-Road Hall of Fame. He was President. I forgot what year. He was President and we were in a meeting and he said something, and I got pissed off at him. And he got a hold of me after the meeting. And he said, well, you got a little spunk. He said, why don't you become my If you got something to say, maybe you can change the system. So why don't you become my conservation chairman, which essentially back then it was the land use guy. I became the land use guy. And that was part and parcel of that. So So I said, okay, I will. And so that's what led me down the land use advocate thing. And it dovetailed with the timing There was a fellow, J. Russell Penny, who was the director of state director, California BLM. And they had come out with this program, the interim critical management program for the California desert. This would have been about 1971-ish or so. It could have been '72. But anyway, so they were going to designate '72 areas within the California desert, and they were going to have it either open, closed, or restricted.

[00:37:21.490] - Ray Moon

And so they were going to tell us where to go, what we could do, and so on. And of course, keep in mind, I'm still fresh, coming back from Vietnam, fighting for freedom. And here they're telling me what I can do.

[00:37:38.740] - Big Rich Klein

More so what you can't do.

[00:37:41.400] - Ray Moon

More so, I was just going to say, more so what I can't do. Exactly be closed and restricted, and so on and so forth. So it just all hit me the wrong way. And I went to work and I learned a lot about it. I dove into it. That's my nature. So I dove into it and make my So pretty smart on it and I picked up, so I learned about the Code of Federal Regulations and the Wild Horse and Boral Act and the Multiple Use and Sustained Yield Act and all this other stuff that one has to know about that, that National Environmental Policy Act, all that stuff that I used to deal with. I was able to quote quite a bit of that stuff back then. And so got upset with the BLM and the Forest Service, and took them the task. Well, thank you. And they didn't like me for it. Well, no. Nobody was calling them out on it. Nobody was saying, no, you can't do that. Nobody was doing that. And so guys like Bob Ham, I'd say nobody, but very few of us were doing that. Bob Ham was one of the guys that was in in the early days.

[00:39:01.320] - Ray Moon

He fought mostly on the state level, and I was more on the federal level. Now, there was some crossover for both of us, but most of his work was state level, and most of my work was federal. Okay.

[00:39:18.980] - Big Rich Klein

And you said Harry, and who else were some of the guys that you went to war with to to keep our public lands public?

[00:39:33.470] - Ray Moon

Well, Harry had been President of Cal Four Wheel at the time. He even just said something. Harry and I became very, very good friends. Harry was also a member of Off-Road Hall of Fame. He was inducted in '78 with myself. '79, excuse me, with myself. Okay. But no, I'm Ross Penny was the state director of BLL. Delmar Vail was the Riverside director of BLL. Luke Boll was Bakersfield director of BLL chapters. Doug And this was a foreign service for California, the federal.

[00:40:22.570] - Big Rich Klein

So nowadays, when we deal with BLM and Forest Service. Typically, the people we are dealing with have come out of college and have degrees in land management, conservation, archeology, all those things. And they're pretty much endoctrined into a very liberal view of what How the land should be managed. And by that, I mean, it's easier to close things down than to leave them open. What was the attitude of BLM back then in the '70s? Was it they were just following directives or were they more environmentalists, conservationists, exclusionists, I should say, not conservationists. We're all conservationists.

[00:41:23.660] - Ray Moon

That's true. That's true what you just said. They were bringing on more and more or eco-freaks, we used to call them. People that, just like you said, it was easier to lock it up and throw away the key than to allow offroading to take place. It's interesting. We went there. There was a woman named Buhla Edmondston. She was elderly, and we also called them posy pickers and a lot of other things. I remember she in a... I don't think it was in a, something like a posy, but you know what I mean. She was happy that we had closed down or that there were some restrictions. It might have been Death Valley or areas around Death Valley. It's up around that area, something around there. I don't remember exactly the area. And she said she used to call us Orbs, O-R-Bs, but she called us Orbs. She turned us into a word. And so then she could take her Buick out and enjoy the posies. And the BLM guy, I think it was Del, Del Marville. He was a great guy. He came back and he said, Listen, if we restrict them, we're going to have to restrict your Buick.

[00:42:52.800] - Ray Moon

And she said, No, you don't understand. I get to go out there and pick up posies. And he said, Well, no, you don't. There's this realization, finally, that hit those people saying, Oh, well, if we restrict them, we're restricted ourselves? Yeah, pretty much.

[00:43:14.030] - Big Rich Klein

Right.

[00:43:14.460] - Ray Moon

Oh, that's one of the things that the equestrians, and the mountain bikers and even the hikers, and backpackers, and rock rock climbers, the guys with ropes and stuff, not with rubber tires.

[00:43:35.710] - Big Rich Klein

They don't seem to understand is that the trail that they use or road that they use to get to where they want to go becomes closed. So now they have to venture farther away from their vehicle than they would have done to begin with, meaning that it's Some of those areas are even out of reach for them. Well, exactly. Unless they're super young and energetic and have the time.

[00:44:08.890] - Ray Moon

Well, yeah. I mean, if they live, let's say, let's just use Riverside as an example. If they want to go out to the desert, they can start hiking from UCR, University Avenue there. And it's a long walk out to Barstone, that thing, and so on. So, yeah, that's what was going on. The fight early on with the BLM was… Actually, there was another fellow, Ron Crandall. He had a master's degree in biology and ecology. He was a biology teacher at North High School. And he was my environmental advisor, if you will, a good friend. He got my passed away some years ago. But he knew the names of all the giggle weeds in the fuckerbushes. He educated me as to what was really going on out there from a biological, from an ecological standpoint. And so that brought me up to be able to talk on their level. And so he and I and my brother-in-law at the time, Dick McPherson, the three of us, we went out in charter and we went to all of those 72 areas that Russ Penny had wanted to restrict, close or open We went to each and every one of those.

[00:45:48.520] - Ray Moon

We documented them and they were all wrong. The BLM, their narrative did not fit what was going on picture-wise, and we had pictures. We still have the picture somewhere. I'm not sure exactly where all those are right now. I think the McPherson has them. But so they were embarrassed at one side and down the other, and we were able to effect some change with that by doing those things We called them out on it and we had photographic evidence that they were out in that field. But concurrent with that, there were places like Darwin Falls, not necessarily too far from the same thing in Dali in that area, where we felt that they were right, that we should not go to places like Darwin Falls with our vehicles so that we could take our vehicles, say within a half a mile or so to Darwin Falls, and then walked the last half a mile. And we thought that that was reasonable. So we tried to take a reasonable stand in dealing with the land where And ultimately, and it took me a while to figure this out, the way the environmentalists were going is they felt that if they went so far one way, that the BLM would have to go more toward their way than our way.

[00:47:16.970] - Ray Moon

And so we then had to, that forced us to go, if they wanted to go far left, then we had to go far right, when we didn't really want to, because we wanted to take a reasonable attitude toward all that. But we had to go so far right that the BLM somehow or another had to try to find some middle ground. Well, the problem with that theory was this was during a time where they were hiring more and more environmentally friendly, if you will, people. And so there was more closures that they would advocate. And that's how it turned out Right. There was a reasonableness for Bill Mayhu, Dr. Mayhu, was a recognized expert, especially in the sand dunes, the Alvedonius sand dunes down the valley, the what they call the land of Sand dunes. The real name, of course, was the Algodones. But he and I sat down and we, one day, and we worked out a reasonable plan. And the I found out that they did not want anything to do with the high sand dunes that were down there. And we didn't want anything to do with the low scrub flatland on the base of the sand dunes.

[00:48:43.950] - Ray Moon

So we worked out an arrangement, he and I, to provide access for us, small trails. And there was only four of them here and a few of them there, into the high dunes. And then we would leave the load, the scrub, alone. And we went to the BLM with that. And then he went, wow, we had no idea. And I'm thinking to myself, all these years you had no idea? But anyway, yeah, Bill and I, Dr. Mayhu signed off on that. And the BLM, for a while, frankly, Del Mar Vale agreed to it. And then two years later, they said, well, we're going to change that and we're going to close down everything north of Highway 78 for no particular reason. Right. And so they once again, they showed their unreasonableness towards all that. If you take the government out of it, you can find some common ground, but you can't take the government out of it, apparently. So there's no common ground to be found most of the time.

[00:50:03.910] - Big Rich Klein

Right. And now the environmental groups are all run by lawyers. And so it's a way for them to generate income.

[00:50:13.430] - Ray Moon

Well, and then they pass the Their own laws. So they pass the laws and then they get to enforce them. Sure. Right. Yeah, that's exactly. But those are the early... I'm just giving you some of the instances and names of some of the early fights that we had. And the way that it was approached, both on our point and theirs. It was an interesting time. It was an interesting time.

[00:50:44.720] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah. Were the off-road businesses... I know there weren't... Back in that '70s, early, that late '70s or mid to late '70s, there wasn't a whole lot of four-wheel drive businesses. I mean, it wasn't like it is now. But were those businesses open to helping?

[00:51:08.970] - Ray Moon

Like you said, and thank you, you had Dixie Tech, you had a few of the others, you had some of the tire manufacturers, you had Firestall back then, you had a very few names, however, that would get behind that. Farnalee was always, Farnalee Jones was always He was very supportive of us. He helped me out on a number of occasions dealing with some of this stuff. I, this Jeep Corporation, I wrote a land use handbook myself, and I guess I took the lead on it, but I had Ron Crandall and a number of other people add to it. And I sold a copy, one copy of that to Jeep Corporation for $500, because I needed some sponsorship. And Jeep Corporation back then was pretty friendly toward us. Today, of course, it's all different. We needed some sponsorship and some help. So there wasn't a lot of corporate stuff that was coming in, no. Subaru would help now and again, believe it or not.

[00:52:32.440] - Big Rich Klein

Interesting. Okay.

[00:52:34.250] - Ray Moon

Yeah, not a lot from Toyota, not a lot from...

[00:52:39.150] - Big Rich Klein

The big three?

[00:52:41.850] - Ray Moon

Yeah, the big three. Now, AMA, district 37, district 38, down in San Diego, and so on and so forth, they had their own things going. And we worked well, very well, with the motorcycle guys, AMA. We worked very well with Corva, California Off-Road Vehicle Association, Dave Swanger, Bob Ham, which hooked up with CORVA. I was a member of CORVA. There was so We banded together. We had in unity, their strength. And we had to come together. We had the rock hounds with us. We had a multitude of... You know, there is, if you go out in the history, you look at the multiple use and Sustained Wield Act. There is such an act out there, by the way. And so we were multiple use. And that's what we tried to present.

[00:53:42.680] - Big Rich Klein

And you end up becoming President of Cal Fourwheel in 1980?

[00:53:51.090] - Ray Moon

Yeah, it's actually '78 and '79. I was president. Okay, '78, '79. '78, '79, yeah. And then '79, I was President for two years. And then that's when, sometime during that period of time, I guess it would be the fall all August, September, August, something like that, is when Dick Cepek got a hold of me on a Saturday morning and asked me if I had ever heard of the Offroad Hall of Fame. And I said, no, not really, Dick. And he said, Well, you will because you're in it. I went, Wow, okay. That was very flattering and not expected. You don't do any of this stuff for the glory, that's for sure. A lot of hours, a lot of hours, a lot of travel, a lot of volunteering, if you will.

[00:54:59.380] - Big Rich Klein

Back then, there wasn't a big ceremony? It was just a... Or did they have any a ceremony?

[00:55:08.370] - Ray Moon

Well, back then, it was founded by CEMA, the specialty equipment. I think back then it was called Specialty Equipment Manufacturer's Association. I think it's Marketing Association now. And no, they, Dick told me I was going to do that, and there was Some other guys, Harry Bush, like I said, there was Mark Smith. He said you've been on the Rubicon. Right. I knew Mark. Mark, of course, was the premier guy there, along with some others, Brian Chache and a few others. There was five. John Lawler. I didn't know John Lawler, but there were some other guys that were, they were five of us total. But anyway, long story short, they flew Harry and myself, Harry Mouchert and myself, we went back to New York. And there was a CIMA show in Long Island someplace, maybe Huntington, but anyway, Long Island someplace. And we spent two or three days back there doing this with CIMA. And we were going to various meetings and dinners and doing this off-road Hall of Fame because it was fairly new at the time Well, it was new. It was been a one year old. And then I think Harry flew back and I went down.

[00:56:40.720] - Ray Moon

We were hooked up with their council back then, Russ Dean, John Russell Dean and who I saw a year, two years ago. Back in Annapolis, I was there, my friend Ted Garish. When we went down to Washington, we did some lobbying down to try to help out the cause while it was on the East Coast. But yeah, it was a ceremony. Yes, it wasn't what it is anywhere close to today. It was during the theme of show. It was a small dinner, as I remember, there was people there for sure. But today, it's a huge deal, and rightfully so. I think it's great.

[00:57:23.810] - Big Rich Klein

Have you been back to an induction ceremony now, the gala, lately?

[00:57:31.280] - Ray Moon

Yeah, I went a couple of years ago. I've been to two of them. I don't get a lot of time to do things like that, but I look forward to try to doing that. My life is different today. Of course, I've got grandkids, and I'm certainly able to go from time to time. It's just a function of time. Physically, I'm able to go. I'm still in... I have a saying, you keep on moving so you can keep on moving. I box three times a week and I go swimming. Wow, very good. And again, I do tours at the Reagan Library and tell people about President Reagan. I was just up at his ranch yesterday. He had a 688 acre ranch up above Santa Barbara, in Missouri, yesterday. And I saw his jeeps and I have two pictures of two of them, both of them were CJ6s. One was a 64, 62 or something like that, early one. And the other one looked pretty much custom made. It was a Jeep for sure, a little newer than that, but it had been severely customized for him. But yeah, I've got some pictures of the two Jeeps he had.

[00:58:56.610] - Ray Moon

Like I said, it was just there yesterday. What a beautiful place. Gorgeous. Yes. Up there in the mountains.

[00:59:02.240] - Big Rich Klein

Gorgeous.

[00:59:02.750] - Ray Moon

But rustic. But rustic, yeah. I mean, it was 1,600 square foot house, but it was not what you would think. It was anything. It was not even close to Palatial. It was your standard bunk house, if you will. Have you been there?

[00:59:19.070] - Big Rich Klein

I've been up to the ranch. We were not able to go in. I went to college at Brooks Institute of Photography in Santa Barbara. And so we did a lot of exploring while I was there.

[00:59:36.890] - Ray Moon

Well, we had a tour because being a docent there at the library here in Seamy, we were afforded the opportunity to go through the house, through the Secret Service quarters, through the garage and the barns, everywhere. We couldn't take pictures in the house, but we were allowed to take pictures elsewhere. And I have That's awesome. Yeah, we were able... No limitations. We could go wherever we wanted, but no pictures again in the house. But everywhere else we were allowed to go. It was very interesting and a wonderful man. The more you learn about him, it's amazing. But anyway, that's another topic. But he was very much a four wheel drive guy. He was in his Jeep. When he wasn't on a horse, he was in his Jeep. So that's what I I understand. That's true. That's true.

[01:00:33.360] - Big Rich Klein

So you box and you swim. You stay very active then. That's great.

[01:00:44.810] - Ray Moon

Well, I'm trying. Like I say, you keep on moving so you can keep on moving. I see a lot of people, I see a lot of veterans, sadly, that Well, they just don't have that motivation or what have you, and they're not doing it. Frankly, sadly, they're not doing well physically. We're losing a lot of them. I lost my brother two years ago. He was a vet. He succumbed to Agent Orange, and he was a Vietnam. But anyway, he succumbed to stuff from Agent Orange.

[01:01:29.560] - Big Rich Klein

Because You were one of three boys?

[01:01:32.940] - Ray Moon

Yeah. So I'm the oldest, and my two brothers, they were twins, 14 months behind me. Dave is still with us, and he's always been in excellent health. He's still wearing the same size jeans he did in high school.

[01:01:51.250] - Big Rich Klein

Wow.

[01:01:52.650] - Ray Moon

Yeah, I know it. And he tried to take care of himself, healthy food and all that stuff. But he's got his problems, too. They were going to send him to Vietnam, but I was already there. So they sent him to Korea and put him on the DMZ. Well, while he was on the DMZ, they sprayed Asian orange on a DMZ in Korea.

[01:02:12.760] - Big Rich Klein

Oh, wow.

[01:02:14.060] - Ray Moon

Yeah. And a lot of people don't know that, but it's true. So it's out there. You can find that information. Right. So he's alive and well, reasonably well in Denver at this point. But, yeah.

[01:02:32.850] - Big Rich Klein

Well, I want to say thank you so much for discussing your life with me and sharing it with our listeners. And I hope to get to meet you someday. If you come out to the gala, I've been at all the galas since 2011, I think it is, 2010. And now that I'm on the board. I'm definitely going to be at all the gala. But if you get out to one, we'll have to make sure we say hello to each other. I would love to get down to the library, the Reagan Library, and I think my wife would enjoy that as well. So maybe we'll meet up there.

[01:03:19.280] - Ray Moon

Well, you got my contact information. If you do get anywhere near there, I'll be happy to take you through there and give you a tour of the place. It's It's a phenomenal place. And he was a phenomenal man. And many people think one of our very finest presidents. So I agree. And certainly, he's one of the very finest in the last number of generations. So, yes. Anyway, so. But, yeah, it's a serious, serious invitation, and I'd be happy to do that. And I I will try to make at least one or two more galas up there in Las Vegas. I don't know. When is it this year? Is it coming up?

[01:04:10.470] - Big Rich Klein

It's going to be back at SEMA on the Saturday before, or the Sunday night before Cema. So it'll be that October. Oh, October? Halloween. Yeah, the end of October, beginning of November.

[01:04:26.050] - Ray Moon

October, yeah. That's what I thought. I couldn't remember whether it was Halloween. Well, hopefully you'll let me know or somebody, and I'll try to work those things out.

[01:04:35.940] - Big Rich Klein

If I don't, I'll make sure Bob does.

[01:04:38.930] - Ray Moon

Okay, very good. Yeah. Thanks, Rich.

[01:04:41.130] - Big Rich Klein

I appreciate it, Ray, and have a wonderful day. And like I said, I hope to get to meet you soon.

[01:04:50.910] - Ray Moon

You as well. Take care. God bless. All right.

[01:04:53.960] - Big Rich Klein

God bless.

[01:04:55.210] - Ray Moon

Take care. Bye. Bye.

[01:04:57.440] - Big Rich Klein

Well, that's another episode of Conversations with Big Rich. I'd like to thank you all for listening. If you could do us a favor and leave us a review on any podcast service that you happen to be listening on, or send us an email or a text message or a Facebook message, and let me know any ideas that you have or if there's anybody that you have that you think would be a great guest, please forward the contact information to me so that we can try to get them on. And always remember, live life to the fullest. Enjoying life is a must. Your dreams and live life with all the gusto you can. Thank you.