Episode 212 features Amy Granat from CORVA

Land use warrior, Amy Granat, Managing Director of CORVA (California Off Road Vehicle Association) joins us for a discussion of what’s on the table for off-road and why it matters to her. Amy is a leader in the fight to keep public lands open to the public. Be sure to listen on your favorite podcast app.

3:47 – You have to be more calculated, …I call it being pointed but polite 

10:17 – not being able to walk was a difficulty until a friend said, “You have a Ford truck, it has four-wheel drive, what are you waiting for?”             

13:07 – it’s very tiring having people look at you and what you can’t do, they were looking at me in my truck and seeing what I could do, and that’s a very big difference 

18:50 – when people talk about off-roaders, it really upsets me because they’re mischaracterizing our generosity 

28:42 – …there are a lot of states like Nevada and Utah that didn’t go through the process, their areas are more at risk

35:07 – this is policy, not politics

49:21 – why wasn’t there access to the Cleveland National Forest for Riverside County? Everyone forgot.

59:24 – if you’re constantly saying not o everything, you end up getting excluded from the table; being at the table is key

Special thanks to 4low Magazine and Maxxis Tires for support and sponsorship of this podcast.

Be sure to listen on your favorite podcast app.

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Automotive related topics. Anything from owning an repair facility to racing. Anything...

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• 10:16 [Ad] All Automotive with Matt Clawson
• 10:56 (Cont.) Episode 212 features Amy Granat from CORVA

Transcript

(00:01)

Welcome to Conversations with Big Rich. This is an interview-style podcast. Those interviewed are all involved in the off-road industry. Being involved, like all of my guests are, is a lifestyle, not just a job. I talk to past, present, and future legends, as well as business owners, employees, media, and land use warriors, men and women who have found their way into this exciting and addictive lifestyle we call off-road. We discuss their personal history, struggles, successes, and reboots. We dive into what drives them to stay active and off-road. We all hope to shed some light on how to find a path into this world that we live and love and call off-road.

(00:46)

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(01:13)

Have you seen 4Low magazine yet? 4Low magazine is a high-quality, well-written, four-wheel drive-focused magazine for the enthusiast market. If you still love the idea of a printed magazine, something to save and read at any time, 4LOW is the magazine for you. 4Low cannot be found in stores, but you can have it delivered to your home or place of business. Visit 4Lowmagazine.com to order your subscription today.

Big Rich Klein (01:39)

On today's episode of Conversations with Big Rich, I'll be talking with another land use warrior, a lady that is very well-spoken, cool-headed, and very knowledgeable on land use issues. I welcome Amy Granat.

Amy Granat (01:54)

Hello.

Big Rich Klein (01:55)

Hello, Amy. How are we doing today?

Amy Granat (01:57)

We're doing good. I'm just I was looking at your recent podcast with Ivan Ironman-Stewart, who is a real legend. It's boring in comparison and It's a little intimidating, I'd have to say.

Big Rich Klein (02:20)

Oh, don't be intimidated at all. It's just going to be a normal conversation. We're going to talk about you and what your life in off-road advocacy, so hard for me to say at the moment, is all about. And we'll just go with it. I mean, there's not very many people out there that can compare with Ivan Stewart, I'll tell you. But I've done 210 of these.

Amy Granat (02:48)

When I saw that and I listened and I'm like, Oh, my. I remember going to an event in LA early on with my son when he was, I don't know, had to be somewhere around 14 or 15. And there was a car show that I don't think they do anymore. And we had to see Ivan Stewart. He was working with Toyota at the time, and he was giving autographs on my son. He was just beyond thrilled. He was so excited. And yeah, so that's a perspective I come at it with. I'm like, oh, great.

Big Rich Klein (03:22)

Well see. But there's a lot of people out there that would put you on the same platform, if not higher than Ivan.

Amy Granat (03:30)

I don't think so, but that's very kind of you to say.

Big Rich Klein (03:32)

He's a racer, and he's done some things good for around the racing community. But without people like yourself, there wouldn't be much of this going on.

Amy Granat (03:47)

Well, thanks. We think so. We're a rather nerdy bunch, those of us who are doing it now. I think there was more of a heyday, probably when it Ed Waldham time and Bob Hamm in the thick of things. It's changed in recent years. I would say in the last 15 years, you really have to know your stuff. It's not as easy. It's not like stamping your feet on the ground. You have to be more  calculated not in a bad sense, but in a... I call it being pointed but polite.

Big Rich Klein (04:39)

Right.

Amy Granat (04:41)

Anyway.

Big Rich Klein (04:42)

You know what? That's a great lead into what we're doing. Amy, it is so good to have you here on the podcast with me, and I'm really looking forward to this. I've gotten to know you a lot more than I had in in the past, and it's good that we're having a chance to sit down and talk.

Amy Granat (05:06)

Well, thank you. I'm very honored to be here, and looking forward to the conversation.

Big Rich Klein (05:11)

So let's go ahead and get started right at the beginning. And where were you born and raised?

Amy Granat (05:19)

I was born right outside of New York City, and raised there until I was about 17 and a half years old, 18 years old, and I went to overseas for a college course, and I stayed.

Big Rich Klein (05:36)

Well, how long did you stay? Because obviously, you did come back. I did come back. Unless overseas, you're talking about the waterway there.

Amy Granat (05:46)

No. I came back with a family and moved to Texas. I had some great experiences traveling around Europe in the Middle East, and Off-roading is more of a way of life when you get out into the country, so it doesn't have a special name. It just is. It's a way to travel. It's a way to see. It's a way to get from place to place. It was how we did it. We had everything from a Scout to a Subaru and just traveled around seeing places. And it was what I still love to do today.

Big Rich Klein (06:27)

And those early years in New or just outside of New York City. Was it a suburb or were you farther out?

Amy Granat (06:37)

Yeah, it was a suburb. My dad worked in New York City. The neat thing about it is my family had some property out on Long Island. Used to travel there, and my uncle was a hunter. We were exposed to the outdoors and hunting pretty early on. I rode horses from the time I was about five, started very early and competed in shows. I continued riding until I was about 25 and training In Texas, I trained Arabian horses on a horse farm.

Big Rich Klein (07:21)

Okay. Wow. Interesting. What was school like for you? Most of the time, the ladies that I interview, they're more studious than the men I interview. Were you studious?

Amy Granat (07:42)

Yeah, it's a little bit more complicated for me because I was in college at 16. I did a couple of years in college and then got bored. That's when I started traveling. I took a college course in Israel and finished some college in Israel. Actually in architecture, traveled around. I got my schooling done and out of the way pretty early on. I just loved traveling, so that's what I did. But I got married and started having children. My first son was born when I was 22. So everything was moved up a couple of years from the norm because I was in college so young. Right.

Big Rich Klein (08:25)

And how much time did you spend outside of the United States?

Amy Granat (08:30)

Probably about five years.

Big Rich Klein (08:31)

Five years? Okay. And you met your husband while you were in Europe or overseas? Yeah. Okay. And what made the move to Texas happen?

Amy Granat (08:45)

Family. Having a family business there. I was right outside of Houston, and it was a great area to raise kids in. I had two more kids there. Ended up in Houston itself. Houston has a great business environment, but then you also have things like rodeos. I was able to continue with my work in training horses and working with horses until I realized you can't have children and horses at the same time because it's very expensive and it requires a lot of focus. But my My oldest son was on a horse when he was six months old with his mother holding him. There you go. So all of my kids had a background in being around animals. And then that continued when we moved to California. And my youngest son was in FFA in the area south of Sacramento, where we lived in the Delta, and raised, let's see, lambs, pigs, ducks, probably something else. We had all kinds of animals all around. They always lived close to nature.

Big Rich Klein (10:08)

Nice. Very nice. Where was it that you got into true offroading?

Amy Granat (10:17)

That happened because of a difficult circumstance. I had, in the interim, gotten divorced, and I was diagnosed with a rare autoimmune disease that only about 40,000 people in the world have. And for a while, it took away my ability to walk long distances. I'm still affected by that today, even though the disease itself is in remission. And I still had a nine-year-old at home. My older two kids were a little bit older and more self-sufficient. In fact, my oldest at that point in time went into the Navy. He's a Navy veteran, spent eight years, was in the first Afghanistan war on the USS Carl Vincent. But I needed to spend some quality time with my nine-year-old. Not being able to walk was a difficulty until a friend of mine said, You have a Ford truck. It has four-wheel drive. What are you waiting for? I said, You're right. Because I'd had all this experience earlier on in my 20s, we started off at Hollister Hills. We went off-roading, and We loved it, and it was great fun. He loved it, I loved it. So we went pretty often. And then that's where I met my husband on a trail.

Amy Granat (11:53)

So he was behind me in a Jeep telling me it wasn't going fast enough, which he still does often when I'm driving. And we haven't been apart since. So State Parks plays a very important role in my life because not only did I realize what it gave to me as a single mother and how it allowed me to feel... I didn't have a whole lot of friends at that point in the off-roading world, but we did the trails in Hollister, did as much as we could, and I felt safe. I knew there were people there I could to if I went and had problems. I didn't have any problems. But just knowing that as a single mom there with my son, that there were rangers available, that the trails were managed and maintained for off-road use, gave me a great deal of confidence going into this. We just had so much fun, and it was such a release because for disabled people, and this is important, disabled people, you can't always see when they're in pain, and you can't always see when they have hardships. But when you get in a vehicle, you're the same as everyone else.

Amy Granat (13:07)

You're traveling the same as everyone else, and no one is looking at you aside and saying, Oh, he or she has a disability or is different. My truck, I was just the same as everybody else. We were all trying to go over the same obstacles. We're all looking at the challenges on the trail ahead. For me, that was a great relief because it's very tiring having people look at you and what you can't do. They were looking at me in my truck and seeing what I could do. And that's a very big difference. And it's important because as people go through lives, you don't know when you're going to end up with that disability. I was pretty young at the time, but elderly people will find the same thing. You're not able to do at 65 what you did at 45.

Big Rich Klein (14:01)

Amen. I know that now. I'm 66, and my knees both need to be replaced. I've got a hip that should be replaced. My shoulders probably need work on them. I'm a mess when it comes to... I've just abused my body, and I cannot do the things that I did when I was 20 to 50, even 20 to 60.

Amy Granat (14:27)

I think we can all relate. My My challenges just started earlier than that. For me, then moving forward in my life, the other really critical juncture where I realized that off-roading wasn't treated the same as other forms of recreation happened. When I went out, and my husband and I had been together for a year, we went to go to Panaman Valley in Surprise Canyon, which was one of his favorite trails. He had had pictures from the last time he did it. He said, You love it. It's amazing. It's beautiful. It goes up to Panaman City. We got to the gate, and we were with friends, and it was locked, and there was a big gate, where before there hadn't been a gate. None of us understood what had happened. There was a gate. It was locked. It said no entrance. There was a way to go in by foot, so I couldn't walk that far. So my friends, my husband went to investigate. And it was a beautiful trail that had been concrete but was broken up and still provided access up to Panaman City. But in the interim between he had been there in 1999, we went back in 2001, it had gone through a wee designation, and it was designated as a Wild and Scenic River.

Amy Granat (15:57)

And this we found out afterwards. But I waited by that gate and I encouraged everyone to go. I knew I couldn't go, but I wanted to know what happened, and they wanted to know what happened. But I sat by that gate, and it was a warm day, and just frustrated and crying because I couldn't go with them, and I was stopped in my Jeep from going with them. It was prohibited from going someplace. And then the realization hit me is that this beautiful place that I seen photos of, I will never, ever be able to get back there. I will never be able to see that area or that trail or go up to Panama City. And that's not okay. That treatment of off-roading and how it negatively affects people is not okay. It is not acceptable in this way in this area. And when I honestly tried to find out how this was designated as a Wild and Scenic River because It was a road. It was a real road. I didn't get the answers back that I thought I should get. I didn't get a comprehensive analysis on this is what we did from the off-road community and those in the off-road community.

Amy Granat (17:16)

All I got was, well, we couldn't do anything about it. We tried, but there was no substantive information I was given. I was actually figuratively pat on the head and given a pat on the head and told, Well, you wouldn't understand it anyway. That's the wrong thing to say to me, just if anybody wonders. I had a lot of time after that because I was ill for a number of years, from 2001 until about 2005, 2006. I had a lot of time to read court cases and look at legal analysis and see what had been done for the off-road community. And that time was invaluable. I was on disability at the time and couldn't really move anyway. I saw how the deck was stacked against us. I said to myself, this wasn't an area I had ever studied, but my father was an attorney. I knew about legal analysis. We all knew. And we knew about critical thinking and said, if I can make a difference in this area, if I can make it more fair to people, that's what I want to do in my life. And that's when I dedicated my life. It sounds very black and white.

Amy Granat (18:50)

It was a much longer process. But off-roaders, when we went out, when I was healthy enough to go off-road, off-roaders were my family. They were my friends. They became the people that we relied on for help. I never was on a trail where we had a problem and we're on the side of a trail that somebody wouldn't stop. Sometimes a number of people and said, Do you need anything? Do you need water? Are you okay? Do you need help? This was mostly in and around the trails in the El Dorado and the Rubicon. You can't stop on the Rubicon and not have somebody come after you and say, Can we help What's going on? True. That, to me, I'm just so indebted for that consideration. When people talk about off-roaders, it really upsets me because they're mischaracterizing our generosity. They're mischaracterizing who we are as people. I should say that when I became really disabled, there have been three periods time in my life that I couldn't walk at all. I still have my wheelchair. My husband says, It's time to sell it. But it's like my good luck charm. If I have it, I'll never need it again.

Amy Granat (20:12)

I had friends in the Sierra Club because we lived for about 10 years near Point Lobos in Carmel. We used to go there all the time. My kids grew up there. Before, with my youngest, we moved to Sacramento. The responses from my friends in the Sierra Club when I couldn't walk weren't, We'll find a way to get you up the mountain, because I've always loved mountains. It was, You have to sit in the parking lot in your car and watch us go up in the mountains because that's the right thing to do. Again, not the right thing to tell me. I said to myself, I'll be damned if that's what I'm going to do. I'm not going to lose my mountains, I'm not going to lose the ability to travel where I want to travel, where I love to travel, where I need to travel for my soul. And there are times in my life that just having the photos of off-road trails, especially, I have a big photo a friend of mine took during a difficult period health-wise, of the DC Urchin Trail up at 10,000 feet. And I had that across from my bed, and I would look at it and say, I'm going to get there again one day.

Amy Granat (21:42)

And what all of this says is my connection to the off-road community is more than just, I like to ride in my Jeep. If this is what it brought me to the point where now I can pretty much go wherever I want. I can travel. My legs are working. But if this is the healing that it brought me, it could do this for other people as well.

Big Rich Klein (22:13)

Correct.

Amy Granat (22:14)

But they have to have places to go. The way we're treated now has improved, I have to say, by the persistence of a lot of people, not just me, but all of us working together. To achieve a common goal.

Big Rich Klein (22:35)

Question, do you think that Panama Valley will ever be reopened?

Amy Granat (22:41)

Surprise, Canyon, no. There's no way for it to be reopened. There are other places to go in Panaman Valley, but Surprise, Canyon, that designation, there's some designations that are worse than others. Wild and Scenic River is one of my pet peeves. It's pretty much one of the worst designations you can get outside of out and out wilderness, capital wilderness, congressionally designated wilderness, because what a Wild and Scenic River means is that anything that affects the view shed, the actual scenic quality of the Wild and Scenic River designation can lead to a closure. It could be way up the road. It could be outside of the It's an actual Wild and Scenic River area. But if those who are opposed to access can prove that it negatively affects this Wild and Scenic River, you can have closures in areas that you don't even consider. It's a very broad designation, and there is no way to come back from that. There's no way to reverse that. And that's why we have to hit these things early on. Wild and Scenic River, really bad I got National Monument, a little bit better, possibly. Another pet peeve. So you have to understand the differences in these designations to understand, what do I really need to fight against?

Amy Granat (24:18)

What is really going to affect me? And what needs to be watched carefully because anything can affect off-road recreation, but doesn't need to become a political statement because what we're working with is policy, it's not politics. And there is a difference. Sometimes off-roders don't understand the difference.

Big Rich Klein (24:47)

No, we're at times pretty simple people.

Amy Granat (24:52)

I wouldn't say simple. I would say that we know what we like and we know what we love to do. After a long week at work, we just want to get out there on the trail because we know the joy that will bring us.

Big Rich Klein (25:07)

Right. That's more what I mean. I don't mean simple in the fact that we were uneducated. Our education may be in other areas, but we know that what we enjoy is being out in the woods, out in the desert, along the beaches and the sand dunes, dunes, all those places that we have public lands, and that they're being shut down to us. We're at constant battle. I mean, the whole monument movement going on right now with this current administration's America, the Beautiful Plan, or whatever you want to call it. I'm sure there's another word for it. But our public lands are under assault.

Amy Granat (25:59)

Well, the National Monuments, again, they're a pet peeve. The Mojavec Trail's National Monument may break the rules, and we're looking at it very carefully in the management plan. So what happens is immediately after the designation of a National Monument, agencies are not given any more money or manpower to manage that National Monument designation. But what it does bring about is they have to do a new management plan. They're required to do a new management plan. So the Mojave Trails National Monument obviously has the Mojave Trail, which is a long established OHV route. And so far, it seems that the agency is taking access to the Mojave Trail and other trails in the Mojave Trails National Monument very seriously, and they're guaranteeing access to it because they understand that if they don't, off-roders are going to come anyway. And I can't really comment on civil disobedience, but The agency is being pretty good. There are a lot of off-roaders that are involved in the planning process, and it may work out okay. If that's the case, then that may break or actually create a positive precedence for what a National Monument will do. The proposed Chukwala National Monument, I've been on meetings with that, and we've talked to the advocates for that.

Amy Granat (27:27)

There is a proposed OHV area by the BLM within the boundaries of that proposal that is called Meccacopia. And it's a neat system that the BLM wants to establish as a new OHV area. And we are hopeful that that whole system, since the BLM has already started analysis on it, will be excluded or either grandfathered into the Chukwala National Monument Monument, which we do believe will be designated pretty soon. But only thing the National Monument does is exclude people. That's the whole purpose. Excludes OHV, excludes people, doesn't allow activity to take place. It's bad for everyone, not just OHV. But getting other people to realize that is hard.

Big Rich Klein (28:29)

It is because so many people that say, Oh, yeah, that sounds good. We should protect the lands, are the people that never go out and try to enjoy those lands.

Amy Granat (28:42)

Well, it's more than that. Every land in California, we went through a pretty difficult period of time where we went through not only Forest Service Travel Management, but Recreation and Resource Management Plan or RMPs for all the BLM field offices. So we went through this roughly between 2010 and 2020. That was a time when areas were codified. And besides that, going through the Johnson Valley designation area with the Department of Defense, that was a separate process, but also took place during that period of time. But there are a lot of states like Nevada and Utah that didn't go through this process. So their areas are a little bit more at risk. Now, they have wide open areas and tons of trail systems throughout Utah. And we've seen what has happened with that and in Nevada, which have no designation process. And now, coupled with the new conservation rule, which I do believe will be taken to court by the Oil and Gas and Cattlemen's Associations, which the conservation rule directly targeted more than OHV, but we may have an opportunity to support them in this process. So in a way, in California, we're lucky that we already went through this.

Amy Granat (30:12)

We already went through the designation process And we have a lot of opportunities. Chappee Shasta, for example, the Fort Sage area up in the Eagle Lake field office, South Cal Mountain, besides all the ones down south that people know about. That already have been designated. What gets harmed in these processes is just the ability to explore. So people might call that overlanding. I call it exploring because that's what you want to do. You want to go see places. You want to enjoy the history behind either the '49ers and the gold rush or the silver rush in Panaman Valley and Death Valley in those areas. It's really fun to go look. In some cases, you'll be on the same road as silver miners traveled 100 years ago. That's cool. It's a great place to take kids and have them understand history when you're actually on the ground where that history took place.

Big Rich Klein (31:23)

Right. Not just looking at a book.

Amy Granat (31:25)

Right. That's how we raised our kids because we wanted them to understand. California is amazing for the amount of history. But just being able to explore when you hit a National Monument designation, for example, Snowbury as a National Monument in Northern California. There were some OHV advocates that were in support of that. I was not. Corva was not. The reason why we were not in support of it is because of what eventually happened. There is a proclamation, and what the proclamation does is spell out the criteria of what eventually is going to be in a management plan. And OHV Recreation came out in a level of importance 10 out of 10 in that proclamation. So before any OHV opportunities can be considered. Every bird or or every other type of access is considered before OHV Recreation. That means we just get what's left. That doesn't guarantee anything. No. And now they're expanding it. We fully expect within the next few days, actually, for the expansion of the Snowbury as a National Monument for that to be announced. There happens to be a single track trail system in that area of the expansion area. We don't know what's going to happen to that single track system.

Amy Granat (33:04)

Again, there's going to need to be a management plan, but OHV Recreation will come last, and that's not okay. But That is a political decision. Not every policy decision is a political decision, and I guess the wisdom is knowing the difference, as they say in the serenity prayer.

Big Rich Klein (33:30)

So explain to me what the difference is.

Amy Granat (33:36)

Well, the majority of decisions are made by line officers in one position or another. It could be a field office manager, maybe a district ranger or a supervisor or a fire supervisor. And those are career officers or career employees in either the Forest Services of the BLM. They are outside the political process. They are influenced by the political process, but that's not why they are there. They're there to do a job, and that job remains no matter which administration is in place. So the relationships that you have and those decision making processes, which we have to figure out is how much will it be influenced by either the state director of the BLM or the Regional Forester for the Forest Service. And that's where relationships are really, really important because people who generally get these positions are people who have been in the agency for a long time. They are somewhat political appointments, but in the end, not really, because they're people who have gone through multiple administrations in multiple positions. That's what we have in the Forest Service now. The Regional Forester is Jen Ebeline. I've known her since about 2010 or '11 when she was in the regional office in Vileo, but in a much lower position.

Amy Granat (35:07)

Now she's worked her way up to Regional Forrester, which is the top in California. She's been through multiple decision making processes, multiple administrations. These are policy decisions. They're not political decisions, and most of them are years in the making. It's not that one administration can really It's not going to generally change the trajectory of that decision. But there are things like the Endangered Species Act, which will influence a decision. Travel management was in the works through Republican and Democratic administrations. How it was interpreted on the ground was through the regional forester at the time. That's why you need influence with the regional forester and the people who are making those decisions. This is policy. It's not politics. These people are around for a long time. Pretty much the same thing in state parks. Although the higher you go in state parks, the more it is an administration appointment for the position. But a lot of the decision-making authority when it comes to what happens in the SVRAS or state parks actually happens with long-term state parks employees who have been through multiple administrations. Again, it's policy. When we get too mired into the political aspect of it, and let's say, Corva in the founder's original wisdom is non-partisan, and we work with all administrations.

Amy Granat (36:54)

And the reason behind that is, is if you You endorse a candidate, and that candidate, let's say, does not get elected to office. Why would the person who did get elected to office, why would they talk to you? You endorse his or her opposition. And you lose the ability to influence. By staying non-partisan, we are able to talk to anybody. We're able to work with every administration. It may seem counterintuitive, but there are actually off-roaders that have political opinions all over the spectrum. You can't say that there are off-roaders who aren't libertarians or Democrats or Republicans. They're all over the place. We're a family that we want to encourage all of our members to participate, all of our members, to get involved in policy decisions. When it comes to politics, that could separate people. It divides people. It does not bring people together.

Big Rich Klein (38:06)

True. That's one of many areas that does that.

Amy Granat (38:10)

Well, that's why, again, it's wise to understand where a policy is coming from. In the case of the new conservation rule, which just the final came out within the last day or two. Coova wrote substantive comments against it because We didn't feel that it was right to elevate conservation to a role of actually a use because conservation happens during the designation process, during the NEPA or National Environmental Policy Act analysis for each and every area that there is an analysis that has to happen according to federal guidelines. So conservation already happens. Why do you need to elevate it to a use Which obviously it's not a use, it's a non-use? So that doesn't make sense. But that's why I believe that the rule will be taken to court. And that was a political decision by the current secretary of the interior. Like I said, it takes sometimes the wisdom of Solomon to give a biblical reference to understand the difference of what you can approach from a policy standpoint without dividing the community by going into a political discussion. I do not agree with many of the decisions that have come out of the Department of the Interior during the current administration.

Amy Granat (39:51)

But the Forest Service has succeeded at following the party line, the original party line that the service has adopted. So they've been very consistent in their analysis. They have not significantly changed during this administration from the last administration Again, all this I preface in that this is California. Corva is the California Off-Road Vehicle Association. We keep track of what goes on in our neighboring states. But what we specialize in is California keeping off-road opportunities open and accessible to everyone in California. My viewpoints are also from a California perspective.

Big Rich Klein (40:40)

Absolutely. There's not as many opportunities, but more people in the state that try to recreate with the off-highway vehicles.

Amy Granat (40:54)

Yeah, that's why we supported the start of the OHV Access Project and why we support state parks in that, because Corva was part of the group, along with San Diego Afroat Coalition and American Sand Association, in our lobbying group that supported SB 155 back in 2021 that created the OHV Access project. That was in response to the loss of the Alameda Tesla expansion area of Carnegie SVRA, which was a difficult loss. It was after a lot of people worked really hard and objected to it, there was just nothing more are you going to do when we were going to lose those 3,000 acres. Instead, we got a big pot of money to look for more opportunities in California. I don't think that there's another state that has something really this exciting. We are looking at state parks, we're looking at state recreation areas, and not every form of recreation will have access to every new opportunity. There may be some for ROVs or side-by-side that may not be appropriate for dirt bikes. There may be some for dirt bikes, not appropriate for side-by-sides. There may be some street legal opportunities that I believe will happen at Henry Coe State Park, which is old ranches that were put together and purchased by State parks over a number of years with tons of roads through there, already existing roads, fishing areas.

Amy Granat (42:37)

It's amazing backcountry. And there's acres. Whether we'll get non-street legal recreation in there, I'm not sure. But street legal recreation, I do believe, will happen in the next year or two. And that's for Jeeps, venture bikes, overlanders, dual school sports. It still serves a lot of people in our community. The advent and the popularity of side-by-side has brought another whole complexity to the issue because they need places to go, and that's where we've seen the real expansion of OHV Recreation. And yet, they began to get more popular after the BLM and the Forest Service did all their management analysis. So nothing was specifically planned for side-by-sides. And this is why we're going trail-by-trail, step-by-step in each individual forest, looking at areas to reopen, specifically to give side-by-side access. Because you're right, the popularity of that, people want to go and they want to do things, and they have this amazing new piece of technology. They can do anything and go anywhere. They need to have those areas to do anything and go anywhere. We have to find it, and that's one of the goals. At our annual meeting, we focused on Corva's annual meeting on how to reopen trails in national forests.

Amy Granat (44:14)

We have 18 forests. How do we designate more for side-by-side? And that's an everyday... It's not a battle, but it's an everyday analysis of looking at what had been closed in the past and how can we get it reopened. And I really think we can. It takes a very thoughtful analysis. What it doesn't take is yelling, screaming, figuratively, stamping your feet on the ground. Because the line officers who are working with the Forest Service or the Forest Supervisor, they need an excuse to work with us. If we say we need these loop opportunities, here Here's the analysis of how many more vehicles we have that are off-roaders now. You need to meet the expectations of the visitors you're having. Many people don't know that the BLM Forest Service are also supposed to meet the expectation of the visitors that go to their facilities. That's one of my favorite questions to ask them are, how are you meeting the expectations of the visitors? If you want to see somebody's eyes get very wide open and look at you with a complete clueless look on their face. Ask them that question. But that is a requirement. If they're not meeting the expectations of the visitors and they're not giving the opportunities, that's the opportunity for someone who knows that forest really well to go in and say, Okay, I have some ideas about where this form of recreation could go.

Amy Granat (45:58)

Let me show and partner with them.

Big Rich Klein (46:03)

If you can get them to accept that. Because I know that that's part of their expectation or what their job description is.

Amy Granat (46:14)

Yeah, Well, I didn't say persistence wouldn't be required. When we're working with federal agencies, and I am very grateful to work with people in Corva and out of Corva, and out of Corva, and other advocates that have a lot of knowledge of the ins and outs of policy. We ask each other who knows who best. Who has a relationship with someone in the San Bernardino or the Angeles National Forest? We need to find the people who are doing the work in the forest at some point and have already have these relationships and say, Let me come in. We did a project in the Cleveland National Forest. I happened to know the supervisor of the Cleveland National Forest because he was a district ranger in the San Bernardino, and then he was a Deputy Forest Supervisor in the Stanislaus, where I got to know him really well. But when he was in the San Bernardino, he got to know Ed Walthh really well, so that was easy. And now he's supervisor of the Cleveland. And there was a road, the only road supplying access from Riverside County that has a lot of off-roaders to the Northern Cleveland National Forest was closed due to fire and road conditions.

Amy Granat (47:50)

And we worked for two years with a local group called the Cleveland Caretakers. Local geologist, licensed geologist with the State of California who helped us, and Tread Lightly. Riverside County gave us two grants to get the work done to enable that road, Indian Truck Trail, to be reopened. It was not WIC, took a lot of people working together. Tread Lightly was necessary because it required a lot of repairs. They have a master agreement with National Forest Service, so we could work under their auspices. Also, California Trail Uses Coalition, a 501(C)(3) was involved in getting the grants from Riverside County. It took all these entities working together along with the local group on the ground that said, We will remain engaged. We will do the maintenance on this road. We want it to be reopened. That's how it happened. These things can happen. The Forest Service had vowed never to reopen this road. So we started off with them first saying no. Then we got them to say, All right, you have a plan? And then we got them to say yes.

Big Rich Klein (49:12)

That's amazing.

Amy Granat (49:14)

Well, we were very persistent. But this is one road. But think about Riverside County. Huge county.

Big Rich Klein (49:19)

Oh, absolutely.

Amy Granat (49:21)

Yeah. And so why you'd ask yourself, why wasn't there access to the Cleveland National Forest for Riverside County? Everyone forgot. The county forgot. People forgot. There were roads. Those roads eventually became incorporated in development. Nobody thought about it. There was always another road. If one road got closed, something else was open. When Indian Truck Trail was closed, there were no more routes. And then all of a sudden people, including the forest, said, Uh-oh, we messed up.

Big Rich Klein (49:58)

Right.

Amy Granat (49:59)

So we were able to help solve it. But it is a geologically active road, which doesn't mean earthquakes necessarily. It just means that the underpinned The meaning of the road is very gravely, it's very loose. Recommended high clearance vehicles. It's open to OHV and street legal vehicles. Just be careful when you travel it, but it does provide access. So now people are able to enjoy public land again.

Big Rich Klein (50:34)

Great. Where are some other success stories?

Amy Granat (50:41)

There are success stories actually throughout California, and I have to credit Mike McGarrity, the President of CORVA, and a lot of other people have been active in the Sierra National Forest. They've had two processes to look at trails that were open to closed. Closed during travel management, now have been reopened. The first one didn't exactly do as much for reopening as we would have liked to have seen, so now they're embarking on another one. New single track system in the Tahoe National Forest out of the Truckee Rancher district. The Connected Communities Project is something that a lot of people might have heard about. It's a very interesting plan that comes from Greg Williams, who is with the Sierra Buttes Trail Stewardship. They have gotten state grants and a lot of state money, actually, to pursue this. And what it does is exactly what it sounds like. So it will take people's multiple use trails, OHV included, from community to community, like Sierra Ville and other communities starting from Downeyville in Northern California. California. This is so people can stop, have lunch or dinner, get supplies, gas at the small towns in and around Sierra County, Plumas County, and be able to enjoy the rides.

Amy Granat (52:18)

Another couple of instances of success stories have to do with California State Legislature passing pilot projects. I know people say, Well, the California State Legislature doesn't do I think, and you'd be very surprised because they did pass two pilot projects, one in the city of Needles and the other in New York County, to have trails that allow OHV access to communities or multiple-use trails, and they work with the CHP to designate these, and that people on OHV vehicles will have access to cities and towns in around. And Needles is right on the border of Nevada, and that's gone through without any problems. In Yoh County, they have one trail opened with that. We hope to see more, but we've had a few hiccups, more hiccups. But if those are successful, we can repeat those in other areas. And this is primarily good for areas like Mariposa, outside of Yosemite National Forest, any of these small towns that would like OHV Recreation and like access and will increase their economic viability for the small towns. So it wouldn't be for the larger towns. But those projects Again, passed by a legislature that you might not think would be favorable to off-road recreation, but they were.

Big Rich Klein (53:54)

It's like they must not have known about it. Must have been hidden somewhere.

Amy Granat (53:58)

No, it wasn't hidden, and they did know. But there are reasons why there are groups like Rural County Representatives of California, RCRC, and we've worked with them, and continue. But there are a lot of rural counties in California. They've gotten together and said, We can be a lobbying force. And that's part of the lobbying force that lobbies for these. And so it works outside of the political process because This incorporates counties who may have all sorts of political, some may be Democratic, lean Democratic, others may lean Republican, but they get together to support issues that are important to rural counties. Right.

Big Rich Klein (54:45)

That's a good thing.

Amy Granat (54:47)

It's great. They're really good people. They do really hard work. Their board of directors is made up of people on boards of supervisors for rural counties, so they know what they're talking about.

Big Rich Klein (54:59)

What is I'm on the horizon that... What's hit my radar lately is this whole 30 by 30 thing. I'm beyond just the California with where I go and the people that influence me and who I can influence. It's all across the nation. And this 30 by 30 is something that I'm seeing and I'm not happy about, but I'm sure that there's plenty of other people out there that are thrilled with it. Most of them are not OHVers. What's most important on your radar, whether it be California or national right now?

Amy Granat (55:53)

Well, I'm glad you asked about it because 30 by 30, California was first, and the federal 30 by 30 started after California. I could tell you how California has interpreted it and what's going on with it. We have far surpassed a 30% threshold for conservation in one form or another, whether it's wilderness designations, recommended wilderness, or conservation easements. We know we have passed the 30% in California now. I think they've gotten up to officially 24.1%, somewhere around there, maybe 24.6, I don't remember. But how they've interpreted in California is getting these large, somewhat urban-located or more suburban-located agricultural tracks and getting them under conservation easements. That's by far been the most popular way to go. It doesn't mean that grazing can take place. It just means that development will not take place. What they've targeted is development. They have not targeted OHV. People, whenever I say that, they say, How could you say that? It's very easy to say that because what they're targeting in California is land that is in a more pristine state than we can offer in areas that support OHV Recreation. Our land has not been considered. I mean, I'm sure the Sierra Club, Wilderness Society, California Wilderness Coalition, they've put forth areas for 30 by 30, including Oceano Dunes, SVRA.

Amy Granat (57:44)

All state parks are off the table, by the way, according to the regulations that came out with 30 by 30. So state parks are not considered as part of this. State preserves are considered part of the conservation number But the rest of the state parks are excluded from consideration. So by focusing on agricultural, think large ranches, Tohone Ranch, all these areas that really do have a more pristine environment are the ones we're seeing more and more conservation easements. And land trusts are the ones who are in charge of monitoring those conservation easements. So OHV areas have not come on the by the people doing the actual 30 by 30 work by California state government and people in the Natural Resources Agency. It doesn't mean that we're not on every meeting. It doesn't mean that we're not looking closely. There is a Citizens Committee. We have an affiliation with California Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, and they are on the Citizens Committee to look for issues That might affect hunters and anglers. And Devon's a really good guy. We have a great relationship, so he's looking out for OHV interests as well. And that's in California. Along the rest of the country, because California already has such a strong start on this, we were not as vulnerable to it.

Amy Granat (59:24)

Now, I know it's a political thing, and people love to hate 30 by 30. I'm not a fan. I'm watching it. I'm monitoring it. So far, we're okay. It has hurt hunting access far more than it's hurt OHV access. It has hurt just some areas, like in the Sierra, where there were fishing holes and people, communities always went to. Some of that access we have lost. That wasn't necessarily OHV access. That was just access by people who live in small towns where they always had this area. Of course, you can go swimming there in the summer. Some of that has been lost. It's not necessarily affiliated with OHV Recreation, but it's a loss nonetheless. How it will be interpreted out of California because OHV is so minimal in the amount of people who engage in it as compared to... And minimal in our political influence. And that's where, again, that difference in knowing politics and policy comes so important. The one thing I can tell other OHV advocates is what OHV has gotten to be known for is saying no to everything. If you're known for saying no to everything, saying, We don't want 30 by 30, we don't like 30 by 30.

Amy Granat (01:00:52)

All it gets you is excluded from the table. You can say, This doesn't sound good for my community. I'd like to work with you and see how I could protect access from my community while you can achieve your goals as well. Then you're invited to the table. We don't have enough political influence to create these policies. We do have enough political influence to be involved in how the policy is interpreted. If we are smart about how we engage our people and how we engage That's the influence that we do have.

Big Rich Klein (01:01:34)

Very well stated. Very well.

Amy Granat (01:01:39)

Being at the table is key to all of this. I know OHV advocates who have gotten excluded from the table because the supposition is, Well, they're just going to say no anyway, and they're going to hate everything we do. Why should we include them? They're going to go off on some I've been lucky enough that I have not been painted with that. So I invited to a lot of tables. I am like a mother bear for my community. I will not give up on my community in any way, shape, or form. If anybody wants to know how stubborn I am, just can ask my husband. But I will fight for my community in a way in that our interests are considered, and that's not by saying no, and it's not by fear tactics. It's by working within the system to make sure that you community is protected.

Big Rich Klein (01:02:49)

Well said. Okay. I have a hard time myself saying Well, let's talk about this. I'm one of those that wants to stomp my feet and say, No, this is enough. I get it.

Amy Granat (01:03:11)

But what you're stamping your feet at, I think, is different than what you think it is, the reason why you feel that way.

Big Rich Klein (01:03:25)

I got to where I wanted to stamp my feet all the time is because Nobody seemed to be wanting to listen or care what we were having to say. And it was always... Everybody was looking at it, well, okay, if we compromise a little bit and give them something, then we can keep something else. And I just kept looking at it as the more that we compromise, we're just playing into their hands. Every time they come back to the table, they're just going to take a little more and a little more and a little more. And I just kept seeing that happen to the point where we were... Our corridor was getting smaller and smaller and smaller with everything that we were trying to achieve. And we were just smiling about it. Okay, well, thank you for giving... Thank you for taking that away, but not taking it all away. And that's when I started to get frustrated and walked away from the table on land use issues and took what I was doing commercially and just said, Okay, I'm not going to try to do this on public lands anymore. Even though I have a right as a business to do that, I'm just taking it elsewhere.

Amy Granat (01:04:43)

It's a perfect example of everything we did wrong. I think we started at doing it wrong in the '90s from what I could figure out. This is not a criticism on the people who came before me because they dealt with whatever the issues were then. I started with travel management in the El Dorado National Forest and the issues with water quality on the Rubicon, roughly 2004, 2005, and started with Randy Burleson, who you know well. And we did not want to compromise at all.

Big Rich Klein (01:05:24)

Me neither.

Amy Granat (01:05:25)

But some of the methodology that was already in place from people who came before us, that methodology said, take what you can get. And my response to that was not only no, but, hell no. But this attitude was pervasive, I have to say. And the advocates who viewed it that way, again, I'm not to criticize, but we had a very hard time in the beginning, and were Forest Service individuals or district Rangers, Forest Superintendents will say, Well, so and so represents your community, and he or she said this was okay with them. We had to say it's not okay with us. And that led to, for the El Dorado, we went and actually It wasn't a riot, but we gathered in Placerville at the fairgrounds, and we went on an overpass over Highway 50 with signs and everything else to say, We are here. We are not going anywhere. In El Dorado, if you remember what we ended up with right after travel management, we had 42 trails reopened after all the work was done on those 42 trails. Now, some of them had to be hardened, some of them needed... It was standard and guideline 100, which has to do with water connectivity in the forest.

Amy Granat (01:07:14)

Some of them we had to do routes. There were some groups and clubs that did incredible work to get those routes reopened, but they're reopened. So 42 trails that were not in the original travel management plan, in the five years after that was completed, those were reopened. The off-road community did that by being at the table, by insisting that they could fix the issues, they could do reroutes, and they did it. So it's I like the Barrett Lake Trail. The Highlanders did incredible work getting those bridges in. That took a lot of money and a lot of persistence. But I agree with you, we should not compromise. That said, we need a trail system that makes sense. We need a trail system provides loop opportunities. The biggest fight that we've had lately has been with travel management that's done for over-snow vehicles. Over-snow vehicles doesn't get... It gets very short trip in California because we only have about 16,000 green sticker sleds registered in California, which isn't very much. But they're some of my best friends, and they're awesome people, and their access deserves to be protected as well. So now we're going through travel management with six forests.

Amy Granat (01:08:41)

One of them has been completed, the Stanislaus, and it came out with a horrible system, and that plan is being sued by the Sierra Snowmobile Foundation. And what they did, and they're realizing the errors of the ways in the Forest Service, is they bow to the pressure of, and this is when I say people blame politics for it. What they really should blame sometimes is the court system and the judges, the inability of offering road to file lawsuits that are effective. And you have to be really, really careful. Now, I have sued as lead plaintiff, the federal government, actually twice. Most important one was done with Pacific Legal Foundation in Corva. I was the lead plaintiff, and we lost on appeal, but we still filed. But the loss did not negatively affect OHV Recreation. We involved two counties, Clumas and Butte County, and the effect on their citizens from the negative travel management decisions. We may have lost in court, but we got some of those trails reopened since then. So It was worth it. Pacific Legal Foundations argues in front of the Supreme Court all the time. So they are very capable attorneys, and they took our case.

Amy Granat (01:10:13)

But we have not had very many court victories that can help us, and that's been problematic. It would be nice to get a case. For all those people that say, You're disabled, we have the American The American for Disability Act. We have tried that route. The American for Disability Act protects access to built environments. It does not protect access to trails, open areas, anything that isn't built, built environment means a campground. It means a restroom. It does not mean an open area or a trail. It doesn't mean we haven't tried and we haven't pursued that avenue because we have some very, very good attorneys, but there is no precedence for that. Just saying because people ask me about that often. But I really don't agree with compromising. Then again, you have to say, why aren't you going to compromise? Why should I come to the conclusion after doing this for a while that people are very self-interested. It doesn't matter if you're a politician or you're with an agency. In the back of their mind, perhaps even subconsciously, I think for politicians, it's consciously, is what's in this for me? My challenge to off-roaders is, if you're just saying no, you're stamp your feet, why should someone listen to you?

Amy Granat (01:11:49)

The response is, because what they want to do is they want to remove themselves from the problem and from the person going nuts and go, Yeah, well, I'll look into it, and then you never hear back from them again. If you don't stamp your feet and you come and say, This is the Forest Service regulation, as I understand it. This is your requirements. If it's BLM, it's Flipma, federal land, policy Management Act with Forest Services, Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act. Say, This is your requirement as you should be operating according to your principles that were laid out by Congress in your requirements in the Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act. Let's talk about it. And then they go internally, oh, crap, this person knows what they're talking about. I have to pay attention to them. That's the difference. Know your stuff, know the regulations, the rules and regulations for the agency, no matter which agency. It is better than they know it themselves. And come with a cogent, well thought a lot-out argument, and there are plenty of them for OHV recreation. That means they have to keep our roads and trails open and don't compromise.

Big Rich Klein (01:13:13)

How can my listeners help? What can we do?

Amy Granat (01:13:20)

The most important thing for OHV advocates on the ground, and this is why I'm a board member of Tread Lightly, is to follow the Tread principles, be good stewards of the land. I will always point out all the Adopt Trail work and the volunteer work that the off-road community does. That shouldn't happen once a year or twice a year on a cleanup. That has to happen every time you're off-road. Make sure you're leaving the area better than you found it. A lot of jeepers and four-wheel drive enthusiasts are great about having the little sacs, the sackets on the back of their spare tires, and they will take trash. But read the Tread principles, understand what Tread lightly really means, and follow it through, because people are watching you, whether you realize it or not. Because we're somewhat controversial, any little thing that we do that may be wrong will get exaggerated. So understand that peer pressure is important, too. So if you're out wheeling or riding with people that are doing the wrong thing, and I'll never forget when it happened to my husband, he went off the trail, everyone we were with started yelling at him, including me at one time.

Amy Granat (01:14:42)

Never did it again. This was a long time ago. Stay on the designated trails. If you don't agree with the designated trail system, let me know. Let me know what's wrong. Not, I need more access because I want to go more places. Is there a view shed? Is there an important, I don't know, destination point at a trail that you're not being allowed access to? I can argue for that all day long. What I can't argue is, I've always gone here. My family's always used this road, and you can't take that away from me. But the first thing I ask people, especially now with roads and forests, could it be a firebreak? Is this road? Can it serve an important purpose? If there is a fire breaks out in the area, is there any other access to it? Can we open the eyes of the agency? So be good stewards of the land. Contact Corva. Contact me if there's an area that you really believe deserves access. It has been closed for some reason. We will work on it. And just be aware of what's going on. The people who work in the agencies are not your enemy.

Amy Granat (01:16:01)

Most of them are line officers. They're trying to earn a living. They dedicated themselves. There are those that will lead with either a political or a philosophical viewpoint that you may not agree with. That's fine. You can be very nice to those people and push them to the side a little bit. But when someone asks your opinion from an agency, don't go in with, I hate everything you do. It's all terrible, and all you want to do is close trials for OHV Recreation. Go in with, This is why I do what I do. This is what I love. This is what we bring to the table. Off-roaders bring, in California, a lot of money to the table. To the tune of $30 plus million a year in grants. No other recreation group brings money like that to the table for federal agencies, counties, cities, cities, and nonprofits. The majority of the 50% goes for ground operations, 30% goes for restoration, and the rest is divided into law enforcement and to education and safety. But that 50% in ground operations, that's money that the agencies don't have. So know that. Know that you bring money to the table if you're an off-road representative.

Amy Granat (01:17:27)

But reach out to other people in the area. Can you form coalitions? So we form coalition with hunters, with anglers, when we can with backcountry horsemen. That's a little bit more difficult because they've now started working with the Wilderness Society. And if you're in a meeting where you have which has often happened to me with Sierra Club people, find a commonality. Go dressed as a regular person. Don't necessarily wear your off-road gar, but put on a regular shirt so that you are not intimidating.

Big Rich Klein (01:18:09)

Wear tie-dye?

Amy Granat (01:18:11)

Well, just Be a regular person. It never hurts to be more professional than even the opportunity might require. It never hurts because then people take you seriously.

Big Rich Klein (01:18:32)

Right. But, man, it's hard sometimes.

Amy Granat (01:18:35)

It is really hard. But as I was telling a friend of mine the other day, we have a gentleman on the board, Bruce Wicher, who's been VP of Land Use and Public Policy for a long time in Corva. I'm happy to say he got to know Randy, and we started working to educate off-roaders at about the same time in 2005 and 2006. I've had people in federal agencies and in state agencies and state parks quote what he has said because it made so much sense. I have not had them quote. I've had them complain about what other people might have said. But who are they listening to in this? They're listening to Bruce, so they can quote him. Now, he is a doctor. He doesn't use doctor when he's off road. He's an oral surgeon and he's very well-educated, but in his heart, he's a gearhead. This is what he loves to do, and that's why he fights for it. If you realize you're going to get more by being professional and putting your best foot forward, or if you don't feel like you can do that, if you're just too emotionally attached, call me.

Amy Granat (01:20:07)

Call us. This is what we do. This is my life. I probably know the people that you're involved with. In some cases, I do, in some cases, I don't, but I'll make it my job to find out. Because my goal now moving forward, before, I would say 2010 to 2020, it was about making sure that trails didn't close. Starting in about 2022, now the goal is reopening trails, creating more access, creating more loop opportunities, reopening campgrounds. Because I believe we can, working together. What I don't get is all the people who say they care about trails, pick two or three organizations and belong to them. Hopefully, one of those is Corvo. We're working very hard for all off-roaders, but I have to put that in there. There are some great organizations, and I particularly appreciate Tread Lightly. I have to say the Off-Road Motorsports Hall of Fame, what they're doing is saving our history and saving the memories and the lessons that the people who created us, who What brought us to the forefront, everything that they brought to the table. They're bringing it, you and the board of directors. I'm not saying this because I want to butter you up, but the importance of it is it brings back lessons of things that we learned before that we may have forgotten.

Amy Granat (01:21:50)

It's really important besides being fun.

Big Rich Klein (01:21:55)

True.

Amy Granat (01:21:55)

But I think we can, working together, We need more money. We need more manpower. I don't know an organization in the state that can't say that. But the people who are doing this like me, we're not doing it to become rich and famous. We're doing it because we believe in what we're doing. I'm extraordinarily lucky to have the support of an organization that I wholeheartedly believe in behind me because I couldn't do it, and the support of my family and my husband. It's key because there's a lot of late nights and a lot of work, a lot of phone calls, a lot of meetings. You may not accomplish something the first time, but there are things like the Sustainable Outdoor Recreation Collaborative or the Forest Service. Most people don't even know it exists. I'm on the steering committee. My goal is to make sure OHV Recreation is considered in every capacity that the Forest Service decides what is sustainability. That includes off-road recreation. Believe it or not, we got it into the charter with the agreement of the Wilderness Society Wow, that's excellent. So it's not... Sustainability in the Forest Service is not defined by form of recreation.

Amy Granat (01:23:25)

It's defined by the management and the mitigation that takes place on the And that's huge. Nobody really knows about it, but it will define in the future where opportunities, how opportunities are defined and where off-road recreation where it hits. So now we're just like hiking or biking, another form of recreation. Oh, okay. Everybody has an impact on the ground. All forms of recreation need to be managed. Now, if we can To get that definition in the Pacific Northwest, for example, in all the other regions of the Forest Service, we would be achieving something. I'd very much like to see that happen because it means from the get-go, OHV Recreation isn't considered as an other. It's just there. It's just something we do.

Big Rich Klein (01:24:28)

Well, Amy, I'd like to reach out to everybody that take Amy up on her offer. If you're frustrated with what's going on in your neighborhood, I'll put it as neighborhood, but in your area, the places that you go with the way things are being done, and you're not sure how to approach things, talk to Amy. She's level-headed much more so than I would ever be. And that's why I have to reach out to people, because I have a tendency to stomp my feet and maybe be unprofessional, and people don't want to hear that. It's great that we have people on the ground that are helping OHV access, whether it's keeping things from closing or reopening things after they've been closed. Like yourself, Amy, thank you so much for what you and Corva and the other organizations that you guys work with have done to help keep this thing alive that we love to do.

Amy Granat (01:25:44)

You're very welcome. I'm not stopping till I've got a foot in the ground or to be in the ground. I found my my niche, my goal in life, and I think I'm very lucky to have found that because people go through, sometimes endlessly, but you found yours, I found mine. It's very, very rewarding in its own way. Can't be frustrating, but I love our community.

Big Rich Klein (01:26:25)

Right. I hope what I can bring to all of this is that person in middle between the everyday OHVer that doesn't know anything about the land use opportunities or what's going on on that side. And the land use people like yourself that really want to reach those everyday users that don't listen. So I hope that myself and some others that are in the position that I am can help with that transition. So I'm not always, like I said, I can't help but stomp my feet sometimes, but maybe I can stomp them in the right way to you.

Amy Granat (01:27:13)

Well, just said My numbers everywhere. My phone numbers everywhere. My favorite thing is to really needle the Sierra Club. I hate to say it, but They needleed me when I became disabled. I'm giving it back. Perfect. My favorite thing is really to put pins in their arguments. You have to know your stuff. You got to know about soil management. You have to know about the impact of equestrian use, 4,000 pounds a square foot pressure from every hoof that goes in the ground. You have to know those arguments in order to do that. But if the figurative, the greater you out there can't do it, I can.

Big Rich Klein (01:28:08)

Perfect. Well, Amy, I want to say thank you for spending the time and educating And I hope that more people will take you up on your offer to listen to them and to help them with their needs. So with that, have a great rest of your day. And I can't wait to see you again. We'll continue on this conversation that we started a couple of years ago at a gala for Ormhoff, and we've just expanded it over time Sounds great. Okay. I appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Bye. Bye. Well, that's another episode of Conversations with Big Rich. I'd like to thank you all for listening. If you could do us a favor and leave us a review on any podcast service that you happen to be listening on, or send us an email or a text message or a Facebook message, and let me know any ideas that you have, or if there's anybody that you have that you think would be a great guest, please forward the we can try to get them on. And always remember, live life to the fullest. Enjoying life is a must. Follow your dreams and live life with all the gusto you can.

Big Rich Klein (01:29:28)

Thank you.