Episode 253 with UTV Racer Hunter Miller making the run from Dakar to the Hammers

Hunter Miller has come a long way since dirt bikes and ATV’s to CanAms capable of racing Dakar and King of the Hammers. Join us for a great conversation of how a boy progresses from two wheels to four. Be sure to listen on your favorite podcast app.

4:44 – When I was two years old, we went camping on a compound where wolves were raised… 

9:34– we were racing Oklahoma and the cops showed up and shut the whole thing down             

21:09 – that’s one of the attractions of the Hammers, one year a trail is easier, the next year it’s terrible

27:30 – I started paying attention to Dakar in 2020 when Casey Curry went over there, but I didn’t really grasp it until this year

41:02– every time I walk, I turn the wrong direction, but I’m super confident about it! I’m confidently wrong! 

48:17 – I flew home like a rockstar, my brother is having breakfast at Casey Curry’s and someone said, jokingly, “why don’t you stay and run 4400?”

Special thanks to 4low Magazine and Maxxis Tires for support and sponsorship of this podcast.

Be sure to listen on your favorite podcast app.

Transcript

[00:00:05.310] - 

Welcome to Conversations with Big Rich. This is an interview-style podcast. Those interviewed are all involved in the off-road industry. Being involved, like all of my guests are, is a lifestyle, not just a job. I talk to past, present, and future legends, as well as business owners, employees, media, and land use warriors, men and women who have found their way into this exciting and addictive lifestyle we call off-road. We discuss their personal history, struggles, successes, and reboots. We dive into what drives them to stay active and off-road. We all hope to shed some light on how to find a path into this world that we live and love and call off-road.

[00:00:46.560] - 

Whether you're crawling the Red Rocks of Moab or hauling your toys to the trail, Maxxis has the tires you can trust for performance and durability. Four wheels or two, Maxxis tires are the choice of champions because they know that whether for work or play, for fun or competition, Maxxis tires deliver. Choose Maxxis. Tread victoriously.

[00:01:13.030] - 

Have you seen 4Low magazine yet? 4Low magazine is a high-quality, well-written, four-wheel drive-focused magazine for the enthusiast market. If you still love the idea of a printed magazine, something to save and read at any time, 4Low is the magazine for you. 4LOW cannot be found in stores, but you can have it delivered to your home or place of business. Visit 4LOW magazine.com to order your subscription today.

[00:01:40.690] – Big Rich Klein

Racing and ranching, that's my next guest's way of life. Just coming off Dakar, Hunter Miller is now on the way to the hammers. Hunter Miller, it's really good to have you on here. I've actually known you a bit of time now, not racing KOH, but prior to that. But we're going to talk about life, and I'm glad that you're able to come on here and do that.

[00:02:03.670] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, thanks for having me. It has been a while. I remember my very first Dirt Riot race was in 2015, and it was that year that it just never, ever it raining. You were the one place still racing, so we showed up.

[00:02:19.350] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, we never let the weather stop us. I mean, that's part of off-road racing. You're outside. Go for it.

[00:02:26.900] - Hunter Miller

Yeah. No, I remember. I learned that there.

[00:02:29.450] - Big Rich Klein

That's for sure. No, no fair weather racing with us. So let's get started at the very beginning. Well, for those who don't know, Hunter Miller is a UTV racer. Started off in ATVs. We'll get into all that. Just got off the Dakar. He's won king of the hammers. We'll get into all that, but it's really a pleasure to have you on here. So let's get started with the first question. Where were you born and raised?

[00:02:57.170] - Hunter Miller

So I was born in Dallas, pretty sure. You somewhere around there. Dallas has grown into what it is now, but somewhere around Dallas. I grew up in Rockwall until I was about second grade, which was, I don't know, maybe 20 minutes outside of Dallas. Then my parents had purchased some property in Greenville, Texas, which is about 30 minutes further east of that. We moved out there when I was in second grade, and still live there today, actually, on the same property. We All of our family has houses on the same property. My brother's house is maybe 500 yards from mine, and my parents is about a quarter mile away, and it's all on the same land.

[00:03:43.270] - Big Rich Klein

All right. And your brother, you're talking about Cody, correct?

[00:03:46.240] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, that's correct. I've got another half brother that lives in Austin, and then two half sisters as well.

[00:03:53.230] - Big Rich Klein

Okay. And Cody is younger than you?

[00:03:56.210] - Hunter Miller

Yep. We're about 18 months apart or so.

[00:03:59.300] - Big Rich Klein

Okay. All right. And you're at about, what, about 40 right now?

[00:04:04.770] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, don't remind me. I turned 39 while we were at Dakar a couple of weeks ago.

[00:04:11.670] - Big Rich Klein

Okay, you just turned 39.

[00:04:13.090] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, I'm pushing 40, though.

[00:04:15.480] - Big Rich Klein

Well, nothing starts to really hurt consistently until you hit 58. You got time.

[00:04:23.110] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, okay. I'm solid then. I've got another... I got to shoot, man. I feel young again already.

[00:04:28.060] - Big Rich Klein

There you go. Okay. So growing up, let's take it from Greenville, since that's probably where most of your memories are at. What was it like? I mean, imagine it was if you've got that property ranching or something?

[00:04:44.690] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, I mean, mainly it was my dad never really wanted to live in the city. So while we were still in Rockwell, he had bought just a couple of acres out here, and we would come out on the weekends and camp and stuff. When I was two years old, we were camping out there, and my dad had this 10 acre compound where he raised wolves. Well, he was keeping one for a guy, and the guy had not told him that the thing had been abused and poked and prodded by kids and stuff through fences and all that fun stuff. And about 2: 00 in the morning one night, I snuck out of the tent and decided I wanted to go see the wolves and took a bag of potato chips to go feed them, stuck my arm in, and that one decided that he liked two-year-old arms more than potato chips. Wow. Yeah, I've got a big old scar on my some on some of my shoulder and under my arm pit, on my back a little bit, where it was off. But luckily, my parents heard me screaming and stuff and came and got away.

[00:05:56.820] - Hunter Miller

Now it's just a cool scar. But So we would always go out there in camp. And yeah, when we were six years old, my dad got us some dirt bikes for Christmas, and we would just go out there on the weekends and spend pretty much the entire time riding in the field and being kids in the country, basically.

[00:06:19.190] - Big Rich Klein

So that wolf that left all those scars, that had to be a pretty good story for the girls as you're growing up. Yeah, I went and fought wolves as a Two-year-old.

[00:06:31.980] - Hunter Miller

I mean, that's the pickup line that I used on my wife that I have now. Perfect. There you go. Yeah, it worked great. No, hardly anybody believes me when I tell them until I explain it a little bit.

[00:06:42.720] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, that's almost as good as Tom He's always fighting off the bear with a tomahawk.

[00:06:48.290] - Hunter Miller

Not quite as legendary as that, but I was younger.

[00:06:52.320] - Big Rich Klein

We'll make it so. We'll make it so.

[00:06:54.780] - Hunter Miller

At least he had a weapon to defend himself.

[00:06:57.650] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, exactly. You just had potato chips.

[00:07:02.150] - Hunter Miller

That's it.

[00:07:03.570] - Big Rich Klein

So you started riding early, and that was on the ATVs. And did you guys... You started racing not too long after that, am I correct?

[00:07:16.920] - Hunter Miller

Yeah. Well, we started on dirt bikes, and then my cousin and her boyfriend came over for Thanksgiving, and her boyfriend bought a couple of quads, and we spent all day Thanksgiving riding them and thought it was the coolest thing ever. So my dad got us a couple of Yamaha Blasters for Christmas, and I was maybe seven or eight at the time, I think. Maybe a little older, maybe eight, and Cody was about seven or six. Of course, we wanted to go to the local motocross track that we always go to and get out there. First thing in the morning one weekend, and we're riding and stuff. The track owner came up to my dad and was like, Hey, how How old are they? And he said, Oh, six and eight or something like that. And they said, Oh, that's cool. We all got to leave. He's like, What? Well, apparently the insurance didn't allow you to ride quads on that track until you were 14. We're all bummed and we're loading up and everything. Another local guy came over and asked why we were leaving so early and said that basically they won't let us ride here.

[00:08:26.050] - Hunter Miller

He said, Well, man, I've got I need a piece of equipment. I just need a piece of land. I'd love to build my own track. Dad's like, Well, I have land, but I have no equipment. Turned out that this guy, a buddy of ours now, lives two miles from us and was over at our place the next came with a bulldozer getting started on our own motocross track. And so we rode and rode and rode once that, and it grew over time, obviously. And we were in the Honda shop one day and came across a flyer for the Texoma Quad Racing Association, which was a cross country series that was having its very first race, and it was in Lake Murray. I still have a picture somewhere of it, but I think there was maybe nine or 10 people there total. I mean, total, total. Went up there, and we were obviously young, and there was only two classes, an amateur, and whatever they called the expert class, I guess. My dad raced the expert on his Banshe, and me and Cody both raced amateur on our blasters and ended up getting second. And it grew from there.

[00:09:34.900] - Hunter Miller

We raced that whole series, and it eventually transformed into a motocross series down the road. Man, that series went on for must be 20 years. I mean, it only more recently shut down, but for a long time it grew and grew. When it transformed into a motocross series, it was at the track owner or the series owners house, basically in his backyard in Oklahoma somewhere. I remember showing up one time and we're in practice, and all of a sudden the cops showed up and shut the whole thing down because of noise complaints. My dad went up to the series owner and said, Hey, well, I've got a track, and we don't have to worry about noise complaints. There for four or five years, every single TQRA race was at our place. Rubber band start and all. And so it grew and grew, and all of a sudden the series is going to other tracks. And we're obviously getting older and went on to start racing national series and went up through the ranks and all the way up to Racing Pro, and that's where it led us into Side by Side.

[00:10:51.410] - Big Rich Klein

Okay. Sounds pretty cool. I know that when you came out to Dirt riot to race raced with us, we already had a couple of racers that had, I think, raced with you guys earlier, and they said, Oh, yeah, the Miller Brothers are going to come out to this race. And I was like, Okay. I didn't know who you guys were because we focused on the big cars. Everybody wanted to start racing UTVs and stuff, so we said, Yeah, let's do this. But we didn't know anybody that raced GNCC or any of that stuff. But that was Shawn Hess and Zack Beaver. Yeah. You guys raced against them for years, didn't you?

[00:11:33.430] - Hunter Miller

Oh, yeah. Yeah, on quads. And Shawn raced cross country on quads. And so I guess going back into that, Shawn would always come out to our place for local cross country races that we had, or we'd see them at another one, and we'd race them there. And they became good friends over the years. This is way before side by sides. And back then, all they had was rhinos. And I I remember at some of the WPSA races when we raced motocross, and they would have side-by-sides out there. I was like, Man, I would never be caught dead in one of those things. They're so slow, and all they do is break instantly, and they cost a fortune. And a fortune back then, I think you could probably fully build one for 10 grand. But I thought I had no interest in it whatsoever. Eventually, though, the support for quadracing started to slow down quite a bit. Can am had just released the commander and asked if we wanted to give it a shot. We're like, not really, but I don't know. We'll try it. There wasn't really anywhere to race. We talked with Shawn a little bit about it, and he was pretty into the idea, too.

[00:12:54.450] - Hunter Miller

We went to our local series, which was Torn, and asked Curtis, Kurchmire, who owned it, if he'd be interested in having a side-by-side series. And GNCC had started doing it the year before, or actually several years before. It's not like it was a brand new thing, but it was going to be locally. And so that was 2011 or 2012, I believe. And so Curtis is actually an old dirt track racer, so he thought it was awesome. And Everybody took to it. It spread like wildfire. I think we had maybe 10 cars at the first one, and it grew exponentially over the next couple of years. I mean, it got to be pretty dang big. Of course, there were the early days of side-by-side racing, growing pains, but it worked itself out. The cars, of course, changed and evolved like they still are. Even 2011 is not that long ago. You look at what we're racing now, it's compared to what we were racing back then. I mean, I remember thinking 26-inch tires were just huge. Now we're on 37s. But I guess that's a long answer to, yeah, I knew Shawn really well back then.

[00:14:23.550] - Big Rich Klein

Okay, cool. And then you guys, what you were saying then about the 26-inch tires and those racing back in 2011. And imagine what it was like when those rigs first raced at the Hammers I can't.

[00:14:47.120] - Hunter Miller

I can't. I don't see how it's even possible. I don't see how you could even get through hammers down on 32s.

[00:14:55.550] - Big Rich Klein

Well, I put on the first race, UTV race at the Hammers Dave and Jeff, that's when they were both running it, didn't want anything to do with it. And so I had like 20, 21 cars, 22 cars show up, and it was madness. We didn't run the full trails. We ran, I don't even remember all the trails that we ran, but we ran five or six trails, plus the desert section. And I figured it was going to take everybody, I don't know, four or five hours for the first guy to come in. And I wasn't even at the start finish line because we had no radio comms then. I mean, it was just everybody was on their own. There was no tracking. Everybody did what they were supposed to do. But we had people spread out all over. But the first car come in, and I mean, it was pretty quick. So they were all staying together. And I think it was, yeah, Mitch Guthrie senior was the first one through. And then I remember, I think it was Casey Curry had to drive the last five or six miles in reverse, but finished because he had no forward gears.

[00:16:12.000] - Hunter Miller

Yeah. Wow.

[00:16:12.730] - Big Rich Klein

So it was pretty crazy.

[00:16:15.550] - Hunter Miller

You don't remember what trails you all ran back then? Because I'd be super curious. I know we did.

[00:16:21.060] - Big Rich Klein

I can't even remember the names now. There's one in the very back corner that we We came up, then I think most of the time the track goes up at now, but it was with really huge boulders. It's not Sun Bonet, but it's one of those way in the back corner. And it off of the east side, southeast side. And it was when we pre-ran it, we ran it in a Yamaha Rhino stock, and we got up it, but it was a struggle. And I said, okay, that's about the hardest thing that we can do. Now, I think there's even a dirt road that goes right around the whole trail.

[00:17:02.780] - Hunter Miller

I think that's most trails out there, unfortunately. Yeah, unfortunately.

[00:17:06.330] - Big Rich Klein

But unless they put the virtual checkpoints in the bottom of the trail and do it three or four on each trail, that's what you're going to have. It's just the way it is.

[00:17:22.670] - Hunter Miller

It is, unfortunately. It's still a race at the end of the day, you know what I mean? And if you're out there to win the race, then you're going to do it the fastest way possible. Exactly. It sucks. I will say most of the time, most of the trails, going up Spooners, they always have the bypasses open. Like I said, if you're trying to win the race, you're an idiot if you don't take them, and any bypass that's available. I personally am all for staying in the rocks because I really enjoy it. But at the same time, there's some obstacles that will just turn into a cluster and ruin the entire race if it bottles up. So there has to be options around it in order to keep everything going. But back to going through in a stock, I know. I remember the first year when we went there in 2020, I remember thinking Chocolate Thunder was some hard trail. And actually it can be a pain in the ass.

[00:18:28.380] - Big Rich Klein

It depends on the year.

[00:18:30.200] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, it really does. We're going down it this year, I think. So it's just a hop and a skip and a jump. But sometimes going up, it can be a real pain. But I remember my brother, he drove for Yamaha for a couple of years, and he had a stock Yamaha Wolverine that we had there. And one of the late nights, he went up there and went up the whole thing in that thing on 25s. I couldn't believe it. And then the next day, we're like halfway struggling to get up in on our cars.

[00:18:57.920] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, I used to run the Chocolate Thunder for Dave. He had me come out, and that was right after there was a big pile up in there, and the course got really widened, and people were in danger, the media and everybody. That's when they started fencing it off. And so I used to run that area just because Dave knew that if there a problem and I needed to stop the race or talk to drivers, the drivers would listen to me. I was used to dealing with BLM. I was used to dealing with law enforcement and spectators and all that. It was an easy place for me to have recovery crews and all that stuff. Oh, yeah. But Chocolate Thunder is one of those places that it depends on the weather. If it's a heavy rain year, that can get so blown out that all of a sudden you got 6 foot, 8 foot, 10 10 foot, 12 foot walls in there.

[00:20:03.010] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, it's gnarly. I remember maybe it was 22 or 23. The trail was a pain, but pivot rock was still there, but there's a big hole in front. There's still a big hole in front of it, but the pivot rock was in the same spot that it always was. And you had basically two lines, one up the middle or one to the right around the pivot rock and then up. Well, we're there watching all the crazy people one night, and this old beat truck hooks onto it with its back wheel when it's trying to go around it to go down. And this is Wednesday night before the race, and he drugged that gigantic folder down right into the line. And the middle line, you pretty much had to winch. It was a nightmare. But the pivot rock line was pretty easy. But everybody's watching this, and they're like, oh, my God, what the hell are we going to do? And Somehow, actually, there was a line to the left, which is that wall line that's there now that we went up qualifying. It was the fast one that everybody was taking. I think my brother was one of the first ones to go up that, and it was he had had a mechanical early in the race.

[00:21:19.810] - Hunter Miller

No, actually, maybe it was in 4,400 that he did it, and there was a bottleneck right there, and he went up that side and passed a bunch of people. I'm sure people had done it before, but he was the first one I remember doing it.

[00:21:32.670] - Big Rich Klein

Right. I've seen that wall. I swear that wall on the left-hand side at times has been 16 to 18 feet is what it appeared.

[00:21:43.090] - Hunter Miller

It's huge. Absolutely huge. And it is straight up. And sometimes you get out there, it's super easy to get up, and sometimes you are shit in your pants going up it. But it changes quite a lot every time we go out there.

[00:21:59.590] - Big Rich Klein

Well, that's That's one of the attractions of the hammers. You can say you ran Jack Hammer one year and it's easier, and then the next year, it's just terrible.

[00:22:12.030] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it depends on the pre-running, too. Like you said, it's super weather dependent. I remember I've gone out there pre-running before and we just drive straight up back door like it's nothing. But then when it gets blown out, there's no way.

[00:22:28.480] - Big Rich Klein

Right. And it'll get blown out because if the weather doesn't do it, then all of the spectators that go out there every night and tear the place up.

[00:22:38.410] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, that's for sure. But like you said, that's part of the fun in the race is everything changes. You know this is going to be my fifth year, and I've got... Honestly, I'm just now getting the basic lay of the land, but you know your main lines and where they go, but it's never the same, that's for sure. Right.

[00:22:59.060] - Big Rich Klein

So What was the decision to go to the Hammers? Was it done by your sponsor or was it on a bucket list?

[00:23:10.520] - Hunter Miller

No, honestly, I didn't know that much about it. Back when we raced You're racing in 2015, we were racing cross country. After that, we went on to GNCC, and we did that for three years. Then we went to works in 2019, and we did that for a couple of years. But Hammers was never really on my radar until one year, Kyle Cheney raced it, and I think that was 2019. We were good buddies with Kyle and raced against him for a long time. I watched it and was like, Oh, that looks fun. But Polaris had been completely dominating it for years and years and years. And KM had never won it. They won it too bad. And so going into 2020, they wanted to make a real effort to get a Maverick or an X3 on the podium or actually to win. They basically put it in everybody's contract, and we were all about it anyway because it looked like fun. Kyle had done... He was going to do pretty well the year before, but had a mechanical issue, and so his race ended like 30 miles in, just like a radiator fan or something stupid that took him out.

[00:24:17.230] - Hunter Miller

But it was on the radar of wanting to do it. I still didn't know anything about it, but other than we went out there for a photoshoot one time, and Kyle took us over and It literally showed us Chocolate Thunder, and I said, There's no way in hell that you can drive up this. That's impossible. We did a little research, and good friend of ours, Cody Taylor, has been my brother's co-driving for a long, long time. But this will be the first year that he's not riding with him, but he's been into rock crawling his entire life. We built some pretty badass cars. S3 Power Sports built the chassees for us, and they were super both sided. They were really built for rock crawling. But the first time we went free running out there, I didn't know how fast to go through the rocks. I didn't know anything. We didn't know if we wanted to race a 72-inch car versus 64. So we built two of those, and it seemed like 64 was going through the rocks better. So that's what we decided to race. We were literally just making it up as we went along and got there with our work suspension set up, and we were so far off that it wasn't even funny.

[00:25:36.350] - Hunter Miller

I swear I spent the entire week before doing nothing but suspension testing. Wow. Yeah, it was crazy. Luckily, we had George White from Double E and Doug Roll from Elka there with us, and they never stopped working. And by the time race time came, we had badass cars. But before that, it was a bit of a nightmare. But Yeah, that race turned out well. I mean, I look back and I remember how tough it was getting ready and how hard we worked and everything else. And we didn't know any better. We showed up with 2. 10 by 20 easy ups, and learned very quickly that you do not want to be out there with that.

[00:26:22.310] - Big Rich Klein

Especially if the wind comes up at all.

[00:26:24.990] - Hunter Miller

Oh, and it did. It sure did. It was miserable.

[00:26:29.140] - Big Rich Klein

You always have prepare for that. Well, I don't like to use the W word, but I'm not on the lake bed so I can do it. That wind or what we call Mariah, when it starts ripping out there, it is insane. Just absolutely insane.

[00:26:45.020] - Hunter Miller

It's even better when you have wind and rain. Oh, yeah. That just makes for a great time.

[00:26:49.430] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah. And the lake bed is, when it becomes a lake bed, it is... I mean, you don't even move across it.

[00:26:56.400] - Hunter Miller

No, it's actually insane. It was pretty wet and nasty last year, and It was awesome during the race because the dust was down, but man, was it a mess? Right.

[00:27:08.400] - Big Rich Klein

Those early years of racing, you're racing the cross country style racing and stuff, and the GNCC, and you get into the hammers, and then the car comes up. How did that... Was that another one of those Can-Am moments?

[00:27:30.400] - Hunter Miller

Well, so Dakar is a few years down the road, but basically, I guess it was about five years ago, that's right. The first time I started paying a little bit of attention to Dakar was 2020 when Casey Curry went over there. And He won that year, and everybody's making such a huge big deal out of it. And obviously, I knew what the car was, but I didn't understand how big it was. You know what I mean? Right. So I start paying attention a little bit, and then, Mitch Guthrie and Seth go over there, and I see the whole program they're running and all this stuff. Then another buddy of mine, Phil Henderson, who was at BRP at the time, was obviously Ken and I started putting a good bit of effort into Dakar, and so he was involved with that, and we chat about it and stuff. I start paying more and more attention, and I'm like, Man, this is pretty gnarly and pretty freaking badass. But I can't really grasp it still, racing that far. Honestly, I didn't grasp it until I did it this year fully. But you start looking into it and you're like, That looks like a lot of fun.

[00:28:45.280] - Hunter Miller

Then you start understanding how expensive it is, and you're like, Yeah, probably all it's going to do is look fun to me. I don't know that I'll ever get the chance to do that. But I was nudging Getting myself that direction every year, paying more attention to it and following it more and having conversations with sponsors about it to see if it's something that anybody had an appetite for. And of course, they all do, especially when you start looking at the visibility that it provides and all of that. But it's still just insanely expensive. I could raise hammers for a decade for what it costs to do the car one time. But the opportunity came up last second this year. I've been talking with Ken and I about it serious for about three years now. But again, the opportunity wasn't really there. This year, when they released the Maverick R, they wanted it to go over there and win. The stars aligned, and some guys on the team had moved off on to T1s and other things. There was an open seat, and I got the chance. K-am, of course, was not able to fund the whole thing.

[00:30:05.420] - Hunter Miller

I had to come up with a bunch of other sponsor money, but it dove right in. It was never really a for sure thing until... No BS, probably two weeks before we left. I went and did Morocco just to get a feeling for rally racing. I had already been talking with Andrew Short for a couple of years about doing it with me because obviously, he had been racing it on a bike for a long time. He lives in Texas, and only a couple of hours from me. A friend of mine knew him through cross country racing in in and connected us. He was into the idea. He thought it'd be fun because he loves the race so much and thought it'd be cool to help me and go drive for it. We went and did Morocco, and man, I absolutely loved it. It It was a five-day race, so nothing like the car, but still pretty long stages and gives you the lay of the land on how FIA racing works and how serious it is over there, because it is a completely different world. I mean, not only is rally racing, the discipline of it completely different, but the rule structure and everything over there is very serious.

[00:31:27.570] - Big Rich Klein

Right. And navigation plays a big, big part of that racing.

[00:31:33.680] - Hunter Miller

It's huge. It's huge. Luckily, Andrew is very, very good at it. I think car navigation is a little different than bike navigation because he's not used to having tracks to follow. He's used to following the roadbook exactly, where me, on the other hand, I'm used to just following the tracks wide open. I would lead us astray every once in a while, and he'd have to figure it out, which was a bit of a pain. But he would always get It was right back there. There was one day where we got turned around for about 30 minutes, but that was by far our worst one. Then one time at night where trying to navigate like that at night where you're going off landmarks, but you can't see anything. So he has no reference point to go off of is crazy difficult. And we were finishing in the dark a lot. We kept it going, but in hindsight, there's so many things that we can do so much better next year. And navigation is a big part of it. Like me understanding the direction the course is going and finding the cuts, because it's not like you can cut the course.

[00:32:47.720] - Hunter Miller

I mean, if you knew where every waypoint is, you can just do a straight line from point to point to point. And it's not like it's cheating, but you have no idea where those waypoints are. And so you have to follow the roadbook, and you have You have to cut corners when you can because you don't want to do all the distance, but within reason, because when you start cutting corners, your auto starts getting off, and you better hope you hit a waypoint or a spot that you can recal off of. Otherwise, you are going to be off in the middle of nowhere and have no clue where you are. Definitely, I have a lot of work to do this year in understanding the navigation side of it a lot better because I learned very quickly, it does not matter how fast you are. You are not going to win out there if you don't have a strong grasp of the navigation as the driver also.

[00:33:37.380] - Big Rich Klein

Have you heard of Jimmy Lewis?

[00:33:41.360] - Hunter Miller

Oh, yeah. Andrew is really good friends with him, and and everything else. I know Andrew works with him quite a lot, actually. We've got plans this year of making sure next year when we show up, we're dialed.

[00:34:01.540] - Big Rich Klein

Right. Getting that... Because that is a... Navigation is so key in that racing.

[00:34:08.030] - Hunter Miller

Absolutely. And on top of that, I'd never driven in the dunes at all. Oh, wow. I had to learn that as well. Morocco, I was pretty pathetic. When I went to Morocco to test, we get over to Mazzuga and Chaleco took me for a ride in the dunes, and it was pouring rain. I couldn't see anything, and I was shitting my pants. I was terrified. Because I grew up riding in the dunes on quads when I was real young, up till about 13 or 14, after that, I didn't. But on a quad or something, and you can just climb things. It's not a big deal. In a side-by-side, especially one of those rally cars that have so many all the electronics and a windshield and all this stuff all over them, you can't see hardly anything out of them. I can't imagine what a T1 is like, but they're also heavy and they're restricted, so they don't have a ton of power. You got to really know what you're doing to even get to the top of these dunes, and then on top of that, trying to go fast. When you get stuck, you are stuck.

[00:35:15.210] - Hunter Miller

So it took me a little bit of time to get comfortable and all that. The time we left Morocco, I was okay. But by the time we left Dakar, I was really looking forward to the dune days. I was actually really sick of rocks, which was me, but the rocks in Saudi are not like the rocks in Johnson Valley. I'll tell you that right now.

[00:35:36.810] - Big Rich Klein

So what's the difference?

[00:35:39.420] - Hunter Miller

They're like Razorblades, every one of them. The rocks in Johnson Valley, I mean, There's rocks everywhere, but it's a beat-in trail, and they're worn down from rain and all of this over time. Over there, and you can get out of them a little bit. Over there, if you have a terrible starting position, you're going to be the 60th tire that has ever touched this rock in its existence. It's not I think it's rocks you can get away from. I mean, imagine a Prairie, except every blade of grass is a rock, and that is what it is like. You are literally racing across big, sharp gravel that's about the size of your fist or bigger. And you do your best to avoid the big ones, but you can't. You can't avoid the rocks, no matter how many cars go in front of you, I mean, they're still there. So learning a different driving technique, you can't be super aggressive through that stuff, or you're going to be changing tires all day like I was. And it doesn't hurt you that much to back it down 10 or 15 %, but Changing a tire takes you five minutes.

[00:37:02.230] - Hunter Miller

Well, by the end of the rally, I changed 16 or 17. It's an hour and a half. It's huge.

[00:37:11.170] - Big Rich Klein

So then where did you get your Dune Where do you think your best dune practicing would be in the States? Would it be Glamish?

[00:37:24.400] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, I think so. Glamis. I mean, Little Sahara is close to me, but I don't think it's very big, and they don't have giant dunes. Now, granted, the giant dunes are actually the easy ones to me. It's the little ones that are always cut on the backside. They're broken completely and really sharp, really close together and very easy to get stuck in, and they will also bite you because you can't really see the transitions very well. So maybe it would be good for that, but I think it's more... Glamis would be great. I think anywhere that you just go set out waypoints and figure out how to get there as quickly as possible just based off cap heading is going to be good practice. It's not necessarily getting through the dunes without a crash in the car that's that difficult. It's doing it as short a distance as possible. Don't get me wrong, there were definitely some parts that were a pain to get through where I had to loop around, but it's not the biggest problem, that's for Right.

[00:38:30.870] - Big Rich Klein

He's getting that heading, that cap heading in distance, and then when you have to go around something, then you got to throw that calculation in there as well. And some of it's guesstimation.

[00:38:42.330] - Hunter Miller

It really is. Luckily, Andrew is like a magician with it. I mean, it's crazy. He will be going over a dune and just based off nothing but cat batting. He's like, it's going to cut hard to the right after this. And sure enough, every single time you crest that dune and it's cutting to the right. So I just got to the point where I would start cutting to the right way before we get to the top of it and shaving distance that way or left, whichever way it was. But again, those are things that I need to understand myself. And so it's just natural Because the navigator over there, they have got their hands full. It's not like they're just reading off a GPS screen and they can look away and watch the birds for a minute and then go right back and look at the GPS screen and pick right back up where they left off. If they lose focus and lose where they are in the notes or anything like that, it is a pain. It is serious work for them to get back on track and keep you going in the right direction.

[00:39:44.130] - Hunter Miller

And When they're trying to figure it out, that was another thing I was bad about is I'm still just pushing tracks as fast as I can. And by the time we realize we're off, we're 10K away from where we need to be. So it takes on the driver's side understanding that, hey, we're not... This isn't right, even though everybody's going this way. And a lot of times it would come back because the front cars that burn that in are really, really good at it. Sometimes it would come back, and it was actually a big cut, which worked out in our favor. And Like I said, one time we drove around blind for 30 minutes. And you have no choice but to go backwards, back to your last known spot, recal, and then hit the roadbook perfectly. Right.

[00:40:28.070] - Big Rich Klein

We do I work as a course crew official on the Rebell Rally for the Girls Navigational Rally here in the States. I work with Jimmy because he's the course director. That guy is phenomenal when it comes to, I swear you can spin him around, blindfolded, and then ask him which way, stop him and ask him which way he's heading, and he'll give you a cap heading that's dead on. How in the hell do you even do that? It's like an internal gyro or something.

[00:41:02.220] - Hunter Miller

I don't know. Okay, so take that person and then flip him around 180, and go as far away from that as you possibly can, and that's me. You could ask Andrew I think he got a little nervous when we're in Morocco because my wife always makes fun of me. In a casino or something, I am lost like I'm in a maze. I walk out of the room, I go the wrong direction every time. It doesn't matter. We're in Morocco. The first couple hotels we were staying at were these badass resorts and everything, and they're big, so it was easy to get turned around. But literally every time we'd walk out of the room, I would turn the wrong direction and just walk off. But I'm super confident about it. So I always say I'm wrong, but I'm confidently wrong. Even when we got to the other bivouacs, when we were staying in the tents, every morning, wrong direction every time without fail. So My sense of direction is just not that great with that.

[00:42:03.700] - Big Rich Klein

That needs work then somehow. For sure.

[00:42:07.710] - Hunter Miller

I don't know the best way to do it. I downloaded a Cap app in my phone because if we're going at Oh, 360. And Andrew tells me the next note is that 45, I need to understand how big of a turn that is, which going from that is pretty easy. But 120 to 217, Maybe it's not as easy for people. There's a lot of little things like that that I can practice in my everyday life that are going to make a big difference until it becomes second nature for me like it is for the people that have been doing it forever. Because you think about most of the people that are racing over there, they live, eat, and breathe rally racing. To come in and just show up and do it is not an easy thing. I honestly, in the back of my head, was like, I can fast enough, and Andrew is a badass navigator. We'll go out there and do well. And I think without the mechanical issues we had this year, I think we would have still done really well. We didn't do bad. We ended up 10th. For me, that's not good.

[00:43:15.070] - Hunter Miller

But I think in the grand scheme of things for our first one, it's pretty decent, especially getting towed in on two stages. So I should be a little happier with it, I think, but that's not what I'm used to, I say.

[00:43:31.570] - Big Rich Klein

Right. That's not in your DNA.

[00:43:34.180] - Hunter Miller

No. No, no. But it's a completely different world, a completely different discipline of racing. It's completely different terrain. I mean, everything about it is 100 % different than what we are used to over here. That's what makes what Brock Hager did so damn impressive. I mean, he drove an awesome smart race and he had no mechanical. I mean, it was perfect. But to go over there, even on your first try and never do it. It's pretty awesome.

[00:44:07.170] - Big Rich Klein

Right. So your plan is to go back next year?

[00:44:11.300] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, that's my plan. It was always a multi-year plan with Can-Am. This first year was intended to be a learning year, and it damn sure was. You never know what's going to happen with things. Who knows? But the plan is to go do it for sure. I definitely don't want to go get my ass kicked and then just stay at home with my tail tuck between my legs. That's for sure. I want to spend the year learning and show up prepared. Right.

[00:44:45.520] - Big Rich Klein

More than two weeks preparation and then just one trip to Morocco. You get as much practice as you can down there in the big sand dunes. You got the ones up in Idaho, and then you got the ones, of course, Glamis, are probably the two biggest in the United States.

[00:45:05.500] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, for sure. And Glamis is super convenient because we leave cars out near Johnson Valley for pre-running and stuff anyway. So Glamis, obviously, isn't that far. No. The cars are completely different over there. I mean, I'm used to pretty decent horsepower over here in lightweight cars where you get... I mean, lightweight is relative, I guess, but you get over there and they're heavier and less power. It's like riding a 125 dirt bike. I'm used to... I see something that looks sketchy and I check up for it and I go through it and I have the power to just pick my speed right back up, where the car is over there. If you let off the gas, you're losing time. It's all about momentum and keeping it going. That took me a little bit to get used to.

[00:45:57.230] - Big Rich Klein

Right. Let's talk more in-depth about the Hammers and and racing that style of racing. When you guys first came out, you raced just the UTV classes. Now you're racing UTV and the 44s?

[00:46:12.250] - Hunter Miller

Yes. Actually, my brother is I've always done both, but it was just by chance. The first time I'd ever seen a rock was at your race. Anything to crawl, I would say. And even at that one, you had lines around a lot of stuff, which we took, gladly. But the first... We came out pre-running in November of 2019, and that was the first time we'd ever been out there. K&m had a team pre-run session that we came to. We came another time in December with a little bit better idea of the setup we wanted to run and more just to learn. And then we showed up for the race. And the race went really well. We qualified one, two. And Cody qualified first, I qualified second. We took off together side by side. Cody immediately took a wrong turn, and I inherited the lead. And Cody had a mechanical issue 10 miles in. It was something stupid as well. Like a shock bolt broke because just a mistake on our side, I think. We were up to three in the morning reprepping cars and again, trying to learn with all the things we didn't know, trying to do everything as right as we possibly could, aside from sleep.

[00:47:33.230] - Hunter Miller

And I think with the shocks going off and on 100 times, and one shock bolt just got either left loose or overtorct and broke. We don't know. But It's irrelevant, but he ended up taking a bolt out of a sway bar and putting it in there and getting going again. But finished way back. And Kyle Cheney and I had a pretty badass battle the entire race. And he had that epic moment of running over after he flipped in my dust. I went on in one, and he got second, and Cody finished ninth or something like that. Maybe 19th, I can't remember. Either way, he's pissed because he qualified first and finished way back, and I won.

[00:48:14.950] - Big Rich Klein

Is he sitting in the cab with you?

[00:48:17.170] - Hunter Miller

No, he's in the toader behind me. But either way, he'll tell you the same thing. The next day, I flew out like a rock star, went home and left Cody to drive everything home. And he's over at Casey Curry's eating breakfast. And some of the K-am guys were there. And I don't know who said it first, but somebody's like, why don't you just stay and run 4,400 in your UTV and They were joking, but Cody took it serious and went and found Dave. And Dave's like, I guess I don't see why you can't, long as it passes tech. Like I said, we had really nice built cars, and it did pass tech. So They let him race. His co- driver had already flown home with me. So Chad Hughes, which is my co- driver out at Hammers, was staying all week, and Cody asked him if he would co-drive for him. Chad, maybe was a little hesitant at first, but ended up doing it. They had an absolute blast. And Cody is telling us all about this and how much harder it is than UTV race and all that. It actually got a lot of attention.

[00:49:29.140] - Hunter Miller

Utvs, I had raced 4,400 before, but none of them had ever really done that well. Or obviously, there's a lot of pushback against it. But he was just out there in that little 64-inch X3, and kept on going, ended up doing really well. They ended up broken A arm, I think, whenever he and going up Spooners, he and Levi Shirley got into it, and Levi accidentally gave him a little bump and smashed him into a rock, but they ended up finishing on the broken A arm. I think he ended up 13th, which blew everybody away, and it made quite a lot of noise. So the next year, we're negotiating our contract for K-am, and we're like, Man, we want to do both classes And Kyle said the same thing. Camers is a lot of freaking work to go out there and race for four hours. So racing two classes, I won't say makes it more worth it, but it makes it more worth it. Justifies the workload a little bit. And of course, there's always been a ton of pushback over the years, but we've done pretty damn well. I think the best any of us have done so far was I got a seventh.

[00:50:45.440] - Hunter Miller

Cody got eighth, and that was in 2023. Last year, Kyle would have done a hell of a lot better. I mean, he finished first physically. But then with that, had it not been for the penalty, he'd have been second or third, I think. And then after the penalty, he ended up eighth. So I mean, we can consistently run in the top 10 on the X-3s. We've just been building and building and building every year, and now the cars that we're running are full chassis cars. I mean, the rules changed over the years where you had to run this basic material. You couldn't have any stock chassis into the cars, which I fully agree with. I mean, I'm all for safety. We keep all the OEM geometry and all of that. The cars are still the same basic production vehicle. It's just thicker, stronger, better material.

[00:51:41.330] - Big Rich Klein

Right. And that's necessary because that was always my concern. Guys wanted... Dirtriot wanted to race their UTVs, and it was like, I wouldn't allow it. And the reason was, was safety weight difference. I mean, you get a 6,000 a 1,000-pound car doing 100 miles an hour in the dust, and all of a sudden, there's a 2,000-pound car stopped or doing 10 miles an hour limping along, what's the result of that going to be? I mean, we You see collisions out there between 4,400 cars that have totally destroyed the car limping along.

[00:52:23.070] - Hunter Miller

Yeah. And man, you will get zero argument out of me on that. I fully agree. It I think that comes back to, well, two things, three things. Number one is the driver. I don't think it should just be free for all. Anybody with a fully built UTV should be allowed to race 4,400 because there is a big difference in speed and horsepower and weight and all of these things. You take somebody and put them in a UTV, and then you put them in Jason's share's 4,400 car, and obviously, they're going to be able to do a lot more in that 4,400 car and get away with a lot more than they can in a UTV. I do not think somebody that doesn't have enough experience should be allowed to do it. I think there's definitely some promoter discretion that should come into play there, and somehow without showing favoritism. Anybody that's got the credentials should maybe be allowed to do it. But the cars need to be inspected pretty damn close to make sure they're safe because it's a big difference. But then on the flip side, in Baja, at Dakar, you have dirt bikes and quads out there with trophy trucks.

[00:53:46.850] - Hunter Miller

And trophy trucks go a hell of a lot faster than 4,400 cars do. And a dirt bike has a hell of a lot less surrounding it than a side-by-side does. But I will say at Dakar, we're out there with those T5s. And at Dakar, it's not like everybody is going the same direction all the time. Somebody gets lost or a waypoint is hard to find. People are going everywhere. I mean, I nearly got smashed by a couple trash trucks, but you just have to be conscious and not do stupid stuff. Also, I will say that there's no way you're going to within 300 meters of another vehicle that is going a different direction or faster than you, and you're not going to know it because you have so many alarms going on, like a collision alarms going off in the car that you can't stand it. I mean, you want to go the other direction.

[00:54:44.980] - Big Rich Klein

Especially in the car.

[00:54:46.660] - Hunter Miller

Yes. So I think some of that stuff could be brought over here, which would make things safer. I mean, it's pretty eye-opening at how much safer it is over there, to be honest with you.

[00:54:58.930] - Big Rich Klein

Right. I have a story that relates a lot to that. We were down in Baha. I was running with a trophy truck team, Pistol Pete and Sauron. We were at Mike Sky Ranch, pre-running for a night. B. J. Baldwin was there, his dad, Bobby, and a bunch of other guys. These Canadian ATV riders came in, and I got to talking to them and they were like, oh, yeah, we're really fast, and this is our first race. And I said, well, in the middle of the night, there's going to be a time where you're going to see headlights coming up behind you, and it's going to look like a city is chasing you down, and you need to get out of the way because those are the trophy trucks. And they are moving much faster than you can move. And the guy was like, there's no way trophy trucks are catching us. And I'm like, oh, yes, they are. We argued about it, and I asked B. J. I said, B. J, how soon will you guys catch the slower of the UTV or the quads? He goes, oh, we'll catch them by this point. The kid was like, there's no way.

[00:56:17.840] - Big Rich Klein

B. J. Took him and another one of the riders for a ride. They left out, went back toward Valley T. In the pre-runner, which is only like a 75 % of the trophy truck. And he drove them back in on the road, and they came back and they were like, all right, we're going to move over. Because they asked him, they go, How much are you going? Oh, we're doing 60. He goes, Oh, my God, we're only doing like 25 down this road.

[00:56:50.590] - Hunter Miller

And that goes back to what I was saying about in the 4,400 race, the driver. I mean, I promise you, nobody wants to get smashed by a big truck less than I do. Right. So anytime that we see somebody fast come in, especially in the desert, we get the hell out of the way. I'm not trying to hold anybody up. I want them to be gone and out of their dust as quickly as possible. So The same. We have our spots where we murder those trucks because if it's tight and twisty, we're so much more nimble, we can get through there a lot quicker. Even some of the dog trails where it's very tight for them, we snake right through there. We have our spots where we have advantages as well. It really does play for a pretty cool race, in my opinion. But they don't want to hit us. We don't want to get hit by them. As long as all the drivers are respectful of that, I don't foresee many problems. Obviously, accidents happen, but anybody could flip somewhere in the desert and create dust and somebody hit it. That's the nature of desert racing that can happen anywhere.

[00:58:10.110] - Hunter Miller

But if a car is laying broadside And a 4,400 hit in the middle of the trail, and 4,400 hits it 100 in the dust, I don't care if it's a UTV or a big car.

[00:58:25.030] - Big Rich Klein

Another 4,400, yeah.

[00:58:26.030] - Hunter Miller

It doesn't matter. It's going to be really bad.

[00:58:30.870] - Big Rich Klein

True. That's the risk of racing. I mean, that happens. That's it. Can happen anywhere, right?

[00:58:36.410] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, that's it. I mean, it's just... And again, I do think that there are systems out there that could help with that for sure. I don't know the reasoning we don't have them. I don't know any of that. It's way above my pay grade. But now that I've seen it, I can tell you it'd be a good thing.

[00:58:58.760] - Big Rich Klein

You just need to go up and ask That's a question to Dave.

[00:59:02.430] - Hunter Miller

Yeah. Maybe not on... I don't mind when I'm hanging out at his building while we're testing. I think he's got enough to worry about on race weekend. I know my place.

[00:59:16.730] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, Dave and I go way back. He was a competitor in our rock crawling series before he even thought about KOH.

[00:59:24.810] - Hunter Miller

So yeah. Yeah, I hear you. I've had my ask you a few times. I'm not scared.

[00:59:30.140] - Big Rich Klein

First time I came across Dave, Dave was being very demonstrative with my son. And I just walked up and stood between the two and I said, what is going on here? And Rich goes, Oh, Dave's mad about this, this and this. And I just turned around and looked at Dave face to face and just started laughing at him and then walked away. And Dave just vapor locked. And at one point he told everybody he's the only guy that ever vapor locked me.

[01:00:00.910] - Hunter Miller

I have my attitude at a driver's meeting one time in '21 because I didn't have my face mask on. That was a good one right in front of everybody.

[01:00:11.730] - Big Rich Klein

Wow. Okay.

[01:00:13.480] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, yeah, yeah But on the flip side, I understand where he was coming from. I mean, I'm sure he had just got his attitude out there by somebody for a bunch of people in the meeting with no mask on. And he needed to make an example, and I didn't have mine on. And so, okay, I screwed up. I can take it. No problem.

[01:00:32.530] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah. Even now, we look back and all that stuff was so bogus. But that's a different- Oh, for sure. That's a different conversation.

[01:00:39.860] - Hunter Miller

For sure. Exactly. It's irrelevant. The point was that he was able to put that race together in a time when nobody could do anything. And that was one of the conditions, as much as we all thought it was ridiculous being in the middle of the desert. But we needed to be respectful of that requirement. I wasn't, and got chewed out for it. No problem.

[01:01:08.860] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, we looked pretty good. We stopped doing Dirt Riad after the 2019 series, and going into '20, it was killing me that we weren't doing it, but I just knew that I physically couldn't keep up any longer doing both Dirt Riad and We Rock. And since We Rock was more like 80 % of our business, that should have been our focus. So all of a sudden, COVID hits, and we had to postpone some of the rock crawls. I would have had to cancel most of our racing series because most of those states wouldn't have let us race where we were going. We had to move everything to Texas and Utah, which would have been fine for some of the people, but not for, not when we were doing nine different states.

[01:02:04.820] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, that was one of the things that actually worked out good for us was in 2020, TexPlex had its Supercourt Series had its first year of paying out big money and trying to put a legitimate series together. It got a huge shot in the arm because it was one of the only places racing. We were simultaneously racing works, and all of a sudden work They cancel most of their races. And Texplex was getting 200 cars show up. It was an hour from the house, and it paid really well. It was like a match made in heaven for us. And they grew it over the years, and it was a lot of fun. I miss it a little bit, but good things all come to an end at some point.

[01:03:01.590] - Big Rich Klein

Right. So you guys do a little bit better now than two 10 by 10 pop-ups in the desert, right? You guys got a little bit. A little bit. And set-ups?

[01:03:11.380] - Hunter Miller

Yeah. That first year, we brought everything out in an enclosed trailer, and now it takes four rigs to get everything there, which I wonder why I'm doing sometimes, but it is what it is. We don't live right down the road, although we are right in the middle of purchasing five acres right there on the Lake bed. So the goal is to get a building up there in the next year or two to make things a little easier. But We intend to keep on racing this race for a long time. Even if we quit, a lot of people go out there to ride, so I'm sure it's still going to be worth more than we have in it, I hope. It's always the goal with anything in real estate, I guess. It's funny because actually, I talk every day about how much I'd like to scale things back a little bit from where we are. But the first year we showed up, we didn't even have food, hardly or anything. We just didn't know and didn't understand what a pain it is to go get food. Now we have everything catered for all of our guys every night.

[01:04:28.230] - Hunter Miller

We're very lucky. We have a lot good, good friends that, especially with the catering. His name is Brian. He's a good friend of George's who's our suspension tuner. Of course, we pay them something for their time, but not full pop. They do it because they want to help us and they love being part of it. We love having them. They're our friends. We're not rich guys that can just pay for everything. We're very fortunate in that we have a lot of good friends that are willing to support us and make this all possible for us, to be honest with you.

[01:05:08.020] - Big Rich Klein

Let's talk about your immediate family, not your brother or your parents. Let's talk about your wife. How did you guys meet?

[01:05:18.020] - Hunter Miller

We have been together right under 20 years now. Wow, okay. Yeah. Actually, it'll be 20 years in April. So when I was not... I had a good friend, my now brother-in-law. I knew him from racing quads in motocross, and he quit for a while and then started back again. We started hanging out again a little bit, and He's always... And his now wife was his girlfriend. He's like, Oh, man, she's got a sister. We ought to introduce you. I was like, I've got a girlfriend. I'm not the player type of guy, so it never really had an opportunity to meet her or anything like And he said it again, one weekend we're at a race, and I was like, well, coincidentally, actually just, my girlfriend and I just broke up a couple of nights ago. So, yeah, I'll meet her. And I had a broken leg at the time, actually. So Went out to a local race where HD was going to race, and they tricked her into coming out there not knowing she was going to meet me or anything. Well, they had said that she was blonde, and they had another friend with her that I was blonde, but that was not her.

[01:06:33.090] - Hunter Miller

I'm trying to chat up that girl, and it actually ended up being another buddy's girlfriend. That was weird for a minute, but went back to HD's place that night, and we hung out. Her sister put her number on my phone, and went from there. But crazy thinking, I was 19 at the time, and I just turned 39. It was right after her birthday which is in April. So April will be 20 years that we've been together. We dated for... We had a crazy life for a long time. I lived at home, and she did. We were both in college, and she lived about an hour and a half from me and went to college in Denton, which was two hours from me. Let's see. Wednesday night, we would go over to HD's house and stay the night and hang out. Then Thursday morning, I'd get up, go back to work. She would go, which was at our shop. She would go to school Wednesday morning and then go to work after that. She was off on Friday, so then Thursday Then Tuesday nights, she would come to my parents' place and we'd hang out all weekend.

[01:07:49.690] - Hunter Miller

Then Sunday morning, she'd get up at 2: 00 in the morning, go to class in Benton, then stay at her parents' house on Monday nights and Tuesday nights, and then Wednesdays, we're back at HD. It was basically leaving out of her car for a couple of years. Then ended up, after she graduated college, getting a job in Greenville at L3, which she still works at now, which is a defense contractor here. Well, they're a huge company, but they have a place in Greenville. Then at that point, we got a rent house, moved in together, and we lived in that for a couple of years while we planned out our house, built that 13 years ago, and we got married in 2013. Like I said, I don't feel like we've been together that long, but it's been a while.

[01:08:41.540] - Big Rich Klein

Her name is?

[01:08:43.590] - Hunter Miller

Brianna. Brianna.

[01:08:43.780] - Big Rich Klein

Okay, great.

[01:08:46.120] - Hunter Miller

Not Brianna, which she gets called all the time.

[01:08:49.340] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, I understand. So then kids planned at all?

[01:08:57.410] - Hunter Miller

No, I think we're going to Clonie it. Okay. I think George Clonie of kids? I don't know. I just remember that often, that's a quote, but anyway. No kids, I don't think. Things happen, I guess, but we don't have plans for them. Cody's got a kid doing March, and so I have a niece, and I've already got a niece and a nephew, or actually I got a bunch of niece and nephews, I'm not thinking about it. But yeah, for us, I mean, honestly, we like our lifestyle, and we're going to keep on living it. Yep.

[01:09:33.270] - Big Rich Klein

Do what works for you.

[01:09:36.620] - Hunter Miller

Absolutely.

[01:09:38.310] - Big Rich Klein

Well, great. I want to say thank you so much for taking this time on your drive to talk about your life and your racing and everything. And it's been a pleasure. I wish you and your brother good luck this KOH coming up and stay safe out there in that 4,400 It's a good run.

[01:10:01.290] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, man, I appreciate it. We're coming with some pretty cool cars this year, and I can't wait for everybody to see them in a couple of days. They should be by far the most competitive thing we've brought to the table so far. I'm sure we're definitely going to need some luck on our side, but I feel like we're getting closer to being able to make a real run at this, if not this year. I'm really looking forward to it, and I appreciate your time as well. Yeah, thanks for reaching out, man. Let me tell people about myself a little bit.

[01:10:35.330] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, absolutely. And look forward to watching the rest of your career.

[01:10:41.590] - Hunter Miller

Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Where do you live, by the way?

[01:10:45.750] - Big Rich Klein

Well, that's a good question. Our permanent residence is Idaho. We're currently in Northern California, a town called Placerville, up near the Rubicon. And we Taking care of my parents or taking care of my mom at this point. She's 86. I'm just glad that I'm in a position or we're in a position to where we can do that. We're still helping with the Rock Crawling Series, but I brought a partner in. I do work for the Rubicon Trail Foundation. I'm on the board of directors for that. I'm on the board of directors for the Off-Road Motorsports Hall of Fame. Still do the Forlo magazine Fourwheel Drive magazine, and of course, the podcast. So I keep busy, but I'm semi-retired.

[01:11:39.650] - Hunter Miller

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that day, I think.

[01:11:43.000] - Big Rich Klein

You still have a long time to go.

[01:11:45.530] - Hunter Miller

I know. I know. I mean, but all those things you mentioned, that stuff that I'm finding myself wanting to participate in more these days. To this day, I have never just gone and driven a side by side for fun, like just gone out on trail road. It has always been either racing or pre-running for a race or, what are you used to call it, practicing for a race. But it was always with a purpose for racing or testing or whatever it was. But I look at all these trail riding events and whether it's a Sand Hollow or Rubicon or wherever, and it looks like so much fun. I feel like I really am doing myself a disservice by not taking advantage of my situation to go do that stuff a little bit more. So maybe we'll see you around at one of them here soon.

[01:12:37.590] - Big Rich Klein

Absolutely. I would suggest, if you're going to do the Rubicon, do it with the Jeepers Jambourie Group. In July, they do three events. The first one is a UTV run through the Rubicon. It's pretty much guided, and it's catered, and all that stuff. And it's It's really a way to see it the first time. And then they do the big run, which is all the Jeeps, and the Toyota pickups, and the race cars, and that stuff. And it's adults only. And then they do a family run the weekend, the next weekend. And so kids can come and everything else. So they tie up the Rubicon for a while, but it's well worth it, and it's a great organization to run with. I'm I'm doing it again this year. I haven't done it in a couple of years, but I'm doing it this year with Mark McMillon from the Off-Road Racing. He's in the Hall of Fame, and he's won 1,000 five times, and he's also the President of the Board of Directors for Ormhoff. Nice. So he's never been on the Rubicon, so I'm taking him on that trip.

[01:13:51.620] - Hunter Miller

Awesome. Yeah. Good time. That's the type of stuff that I want to start enjoying a little bit.

[01:13:57.660] - Big Rich Klein

Well, excellent. Well, again, thank you. Continue your drive. Be safe and good luck and balls to the wall.

[01:14:07.190] - Hunter Miller

I appreciate it, man. Thank you. Have a great day. All right, Hunter. Bye.

[01:14:12.060] - Big Rich Klein

Well, that's another episode of Conversations with Big Rich. I'd like to thank you all for listening. If you could do us a favor and leave us a review on any podcast service that you happen to be listening on, or send us an email or a text message or a Facebook message, and let me know any ideas that you have, or if there's anybody that you have that you think would be a great guest, please forward the contact information to me so that we can try to get them on. And always remember, live life to the fullest. Enjoying life is a must. Follow your dreams and live life with all the gusto you can. Thank you.