Off-road lifer breaks stereotypes in multi-states, Cameron Chin on Episode 309

Conversations with Big Rich welcomes fabricator, racer, and shop owner Cameron Chin—an off-road lifer who broke stereotypes to build a career around cars. Born and raised in Houston, Cameron cut his teeth on a rough ’67 Mustang, studied studio art at UT Austin, and dove headfirst into off-roading by co-founding the Longhorn Off-Road Club. After early shop experience and the dot-com bust, he launched Crawltex (2006), helping grow Texas’ wheeling scene with everything from bolt-ons to axle and engine swaps.

Cameron shares first desert race memories supporting a Hooters-backed team at the Baja 500, a white-knuckle Rally America win as a co-driver, and candid thoughts on King of the Hammers. A move to Las Vegas for his wife’s NICU career led to Nefarious Customs, where he expanded into high-end restomods and desert builds. Now back in Texas, Cameron juggles shops in Vegas, Austin, and the Houston area, focusing on frame-off Scouts, a tube-chassis LS-swapped Porsche Targa for his dad, classic Chevy and Camaro builds, and more—while nurturing his kids’ budding interest in motorsports 

Transcript

[00:00:05.100] - 

Welcome to Conversations with Big Rich. This is an interview-style podcast. Those interviewed are all involved in the off-road industry. Being involved, like all of my guests are, is a lifestyle, not just a job. I talk to past, present, and future legends, as well as business owners, employees, media, and land use warriors, men and women who have found their way into this exciting and addictive lifestyle we call off-road. We discuss their personal history, struggles, successes, and reboots. We dive into what drives them to stay active and off-road. We all hope to shed some light on how to find a path into this world that we live and love and call off-road.

[00:00:46.400] -

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[00:01:12.880] - Big Rich Klein

My guest on this week's podcast has broken the mold and stereotypes. He didn't become a lawyer or a doctor. He became an off-road enthusiast, a car builder and a racer. My guest is Cameron Chin. Hello, Cameron Chin. It's so good to have you on the podcast. I'm really looking forward to finding out all the nitty-gritty about your past and your wanted posters and all that stuff, and get to where you're at today.

[00:01:47.600] - Cameron Chin

Hey, Rich. Great to talk to you.

[00:01:49.600] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah. So let's get started where I start with everybody, and let's dive into that very beginning. Where were you born and raised?

[00:02:00.000] - Cameron Chin

Originally, I'm from Texas. I was born here in Houston and went through all grade school here. When I graduated, I went to Austin and went to UT for a little bit and did the best I could there. Was not super focused, but did what I could. And then that's when I really got into off-roading and worked at a shop. And that shop went under during the dot-com bust. So I went back to school, finished, and then opened our first shop.

[00:02:34.940] - Big Rich Klein

Okay. So let's investigate those early years in Houston. Okay. Were you in Houston proper, or were you out in the suburbs?

[00:02:48.980] - Cameron Chin

Oh, yeah. I grew up on the west side of town, and it was, I guess, Spring Branch area. I don't know if you're familiar with the geography of Houston, but it's- I know. It's spring. 610 Lou. It's not spring. So it's just like west of 610. Like, wherever the Galleria is, if you went maybe 10 miles West, that's where we lived. Okay.

[00:03:15.540] - Big Rich Klein

What was it like growing up there? Was it nice American suburbia?

[00:03:20.340] - Cameron Chin

Oh, man. Well, yeah, it was the '90s, so it was different. It was definitely It was definitely more of a city. Stuff's always going on in the city, but outside in the suburbs where we lived, it was pretty tame.

[00:03:42.220] - Big Rich Klein

What did you do for entertainment as a kid in your neighborhood?

[00:03:48.880] - Cameron Chin

Oh, I mean, just the normal kid stuff. Ride your bike, pick up football games, video games, that stuff. I didn't really get into cars. I like working on cars until I bought my first one. But, yeah, we just grew up as a normal kid, really.

[00:04:06.400] - Big Rich Klein

Okay. And school, was it easy or was it... Were you a good student or were you looking out the window Most of the day?

[00:04:16.320] - Cameron Chin

I was a pretty good student. I'm Chinese, so there's a pretty hard focus on academics.

[00:04:25.980] - Big Rich Klein

You're Chinese?

[00:04:27.900] - Cameron Chin

Yeah, a lot A lot of people don't realize that when they hear my voice. But same with my dad. My dad grew up in Houston, too, and he sounds more Texan than I am.

[00:04:39.740] - Big Rich Klein

I don't know. I can't remember his name, but I think he's a Korean comedian that's from Tennessee. Oh, yeah. Has a real heavy accent, and it's hilarious when he starts talking about being an Asian and people don't understand.

[00:05:04.920] - Cameron Chin

Oh, yeah. That definitely happened a lot when we first opened. I talked to customers on the phone about their Jeep or truck, and then they'd come in like, I'm looking for the owner. I was talking to you. I was like, Yeah, it's me.

[00:05:19.340] - Big Rich Klein

So, breaking stereotypes. Yeah.

[00:05:25.280] - Cameron Chin

Quite a bit, yeah.

[00:05:27.880] - Big Rich Klein

So in school, Of course, like you said, you're Chinese, so that the parental units, they thought education was extremely important.

[00:05:40.540] - Cameron Chin

Yeah, absolutely. They were always really supportive of me doing artwork and music and trying to be a more well-rounded person so that I could get into a better school and hopefully become a doctor or a lawyer. That didn't really work out, but they did try.

[00:06:01.180] - Big Rich Klein

Become a doctor or lawyer. When you were growing up, did you, and in school, were there extracurricular activities, sports, plays, music, that thing?

[00:06:19.340] - Cameron Chin

Yeah. I did a lot of... I think I played piano for 10 years. I was not very good at sports as most Asians are. We really Excel in non-sports sports, like shooting pool or bowling, but badminton, stuff like that for whatever reason. But yeah, I tried sports. I just wasn't really great at it. And so I found myself into reading a lot. And then I guess I got into cars when I was seven or eight and really just wanted to drive and focus more on my energy than when I wasn't focusing on academics with learning about different models of cars, putting a lot of toy models together, and all the normal kids stuff, Hot Reels and Legos.

[00:07:11.720] - Big Rich Klein

When you said you put models together, did you do the Reveal, glue together, that thing?

[00:07:20.160] - Cameron Chin

Yeah, those really crappy ones you get at Michael's and struggle putting together.

[00:07:24.960] - Big Rich Klein

And the test store paints and doing all the custom painting yourself?

[00:07:30.000] - Cameron Chin

I tried. That stuff always is really... It didn't turn out that great when you paint your own cars, but I definitely put them together.

[00:07:38.900] - Big Rich Klein

I painted mine because I could not put a sticker on to save my life, and I still can't.

[00:07:45.680] - Cameron Chin

No.

[00:07:46.880] - Big Rich Klein

The decals that come with those things, they never could get one straight without bubbles or wrinkles. And in fact, at the Rebell now, when it comes time to put on stickers for the event sponsor stickers on the rigs, that's not one of my jobs.

[00:08:07.720] - Cameron Chin

Oh, that's fair. That's actually really hard to do.

[00:08:10.440] - Big Rich Klein

It is. At least it is for me. I see other people just whip through it, and I'm like, God, how do they do that? Anyway. So you really got into cars, and you said you wanted to drive, and you were... How old?

[00:08:28.000] - Cameron Chin

Oh, man. I was probably seven or eight when I started watching a lot of NASCAR races on TV because we didn't have cable, so I'd have to watch whatever was playing on the free channels. That was one thing that could hold my interest. Then I went down that path like, Hey, dad, I want to be a race car driver. He just started laughing at me because we did not need money and no contacts into that at all. But he was really supportive when it was almost time to drive. All my buddies, we grew up in a pretty affluent area of Houston. My buddies were getting brand new cars when they turned 15, 16, and I was not. He was like, Well, you can borrow the family van when I'm not at work, or you can go save your money and get a car. I ended up buying an old, really crappy Mustang. My dad was cool enough to make sure that I got an interesting one, so we got a '67 Fastback. Nice. But it was a pile of garbage. I mean, it was a 30-year-old car that had been neglected. And that's where I learned how to work on cars in the beginning.

[00:09:49.670] - Cameron Chin

And then he had known the owner of John's Mustang parts in Houston and got me somehow he I was able to get me there during the summers to sweep the floors and absorb anything I could over there. And that's really when I made that decision. I was going to be building cars for the rest of my life, although they thought that it was just a phase.

[00:10:18.000] - Big Rich Klein

How old were you? Were you driving then when you started working at the Mustang shop?

[00:10:23.400] - Cameron Chin

No, I had been saving every birthday check or Christmas money since I was 10. To buy my first car. But I bought the car when I was 14, and I couldn't get a driver's permit until 15. So I had two years to try to get the car running enough to drive it. We didn't make that mark. I think probably I was 16 and a half or so before the car was roadworthy.

[00:10:50.900] - Big Rich Klein

So in the meantime, you were driving the family van?

[00:10:55.360] - Cameron Chin

Yeah. And it wasn't a nice van. It was an '87 Asteret It was just like burning a quart of oil every two days.

[00:11:02.700] - Big Rich Klein

It was an- So it wasn't the van you'd find down by the river?

[00:11:09.140] - Cameron Chin

No, it wasn't that bad, but it was definitely not something that would impress the ladies. It was just an old beat-up van.

[00:11:21.720] - Big Rich Klein

When you got the Mustang, what was the first thing you did besides clean it?

[00:11:27.720] - Cameron Chin

Oh, man. I mean, it was such a pile of junk, but I washed that car every, almost every day, just because that's the all I could do to it. I'd sit in that car and just dream about driving that car. But I think I started with the interior. That was probably the easiest thing for someone that doesn't have a lot of skills to just unscrew all the panels, clean everything, and save up and buy pieces as I could, and get stuff for your birthday, and swap outdoor handles, and pieces that Pieces of the dash and that thing.

[00:12:03.340] - Big Rich Klein

Did you ever get around to doing engine work on it?

[00:12:09.600] - Cameron Chin

A little bit, but that wasn't really my skill set at the time. I had to pay other people to do that at that point in my life.

[00:12:22.100] - Big Rich Klein

I noticed that when you went to college, to the University of Texas at Austin, it says you studied studio art.

[00:12:37.560] - Cameron Chin

Oh, yeah.

[00:12:38.500] - Big Rich Klein

What is studio art?

[00:12:41.280] - Cameron Chin

Studio art is actually painting and drawing and sculpting all the actual textiles and making art. I went in there as liberal arts, didn't really know what wanted to do. Then I realized quickly I did not have the aptitude to sit in a classroom and learn at the level I needed to study at, to be an engineer or an architect. Those were the two careers I thought I could see myself doing and still build something. But unfortunately, my math skills were not where they needed to be, or attention span, really. Studio art was a good outlet for me for creativity. My backup plan of this whole mechanic thing wasn't going to happen was basically to teach art.

[00:13:42.100] - Big Rich Klein

Okay. With that studio art, did you have live models come in?

[00:13:50.580] - Cameron Chin

Oh, yeah, there was live drawing. Yeah, there was some of that as well.

[00:13:55.200] - Big Rich Klein

What did you find was your best medium?

[00:14:00.840] - Cameron Chin

I did pretty okay with the charcoal stuff and drawing and painting. Then I got into sculpture, and I was really stoked about the metal aspect of it. I did metal sculpture for a while, but unfortunately, none of the guys that were teaching the class knew how to use the machinery. I was having to teach myself how to use the welders and everything that the great University of Texas could afford to have but didn't know how to get faculty in there that could use this stuff.

[00:14:34.740] - Big Rich Klein

Did you have metal shapers and stuff like that?

[00:14:38.760] - Cameron Chin

No, it wasn't that cool. It's more like belt sanders and tig welders and dig welders and grinders and whatnot. The stuff that you would, if you were just starting in a fab shop, start buying to get you started. But it wasn't the really cool stuff like the English wheel or or a planishing hammer or anything like that.

[00:15:03.650] - Big Rich Klein

Okay. Let's go back to those first jobs. You said you were working sweeping floors, whatever, at the It was a Mustang shop. Where did that progress? Did you stay there quite a while, or did you move on to other things?

[00:15:23.900] - Cameron Chin

No. I wish I had. That would have been great. That was a restoration Restomod. Well, I hate to say Restomod. That wasn't really a thing back then. At that time, the cars were just old and you're trying to keep them on the road. But it was probably more of a restoration/mechanic shop. During college, I wasn't very serious the first time I was there and actually ended up on scolastic probation. It was pretty insane. It was like animal house where I had coincidentally gone to high school with Howl Frost, but he was a year above me. I got reintroduced to him formally. At the time, he was off-roading a lot and off-roading with Texas A&M Off-Road Club. He met me and I had a Jeep, but another buddy of mine had a Jeep. We just said, Hey, well, why don't we start our own club? That turned into the Longhorn Off-Road Club that ran for five or six years. We would go to Fort hood a lot and a lot of the different local spots that were still open at the time. I was very distracted, ended up getting a 0. 7 GPA one semester. Yeah, Yeah.

[00:16:46.880] - Cameron Chin

Very huge disappointment to my parents. I ended up just taking a break from school. At that time, there was an off-road shop called Performance Unlimited that I ended up getting a job at and worked there for two or three years before the dot com bust and the economy went to crap and they eventually had to close. But that's where I finally felt like I made it and got my foot in the door and a taste for that and really absorbed all the knowledge that my boss, Jeff, could bestow on me and all the opportunities he had given me to work on these interesting vehicles. That's where I knew this is for real. This is what I'm going to do. I needed to figure out how to get there. When he had to close the shop, I just went back to school, finished, got that amazing degree in Art with a minor in education that doesn't really do much for you career-wise. But after that, at least I had a checked off and I could move on and then focus on trying to start the shop.

[00:18:00.700] - Big Rich Klein

When you got out of college, you just said, Okay, now is the time to start my own shop?

[00:18:06.280] - Cameron Chin

Yeah. Two of my friends, we pulled together. We borrowed money, basically, from everybody we knew. I think we were able to scrounge up 10 grand to buy some used tools and have first and last month's rent in this really small thousand-square-foot shop. But all three of us were really involved with the off-road community. We had enough friends that helped patronize the shop and get us off the ground. That's how we started Crawl Techs.

[00:18:41.440] - Big Rich Klein

Can I ask who those partners were?

[00:18:45.180] - Cameron Chin

Nate Biggs, I think he's a retired school teacher now, but he was really heavy with the Austin Jupe exclusive and some of the other Jupe clubs, and he went to school with me. Then Glenn Carnes, he's currently a home inspector now, but he was really, really involved with the off-road community as well.

[00:19:08.660] - Big Rich Klein

Right. I remember both those names.

[00:19:11.440] - Cameron Chin

Oh, did you? Okay, cool.

[00:19:15.080] - Big Rich Klein

Those early years of Crawl Techs, what was that like trying to get a business basically off the ground? I mean, you guys found some money, found a What was the building? What was it?

[00:19:34.960] - Cameron Chin

I wish I could tell you it was great. It was definitely fun. We weren't really making any money, but we did have a great time. We were so involved with the off-road community that we were going on all these runs to different parks every weekend. We meet people and they would inevitably break on the trail. Pretty much every event, we would have two or three new customers on Monday, and that helped us grow. We started small with mostly bolt on stuff. At that time, Poison Spider was still around, and that had just come out. We were doing a lot of cage work, vendors, Rubicon Express stuff, long arm kits, and that thing. Then we had a few friends get a little bit more hardcore and want Axel swaps and motor swaps. When we started doing that, that's what helped grow the business to a point where it wasn't just a bolt-on shop. That's where I met Tony Arledge, I thought he was a great friend of Glenn and a great friend of mine. Got to build him a buggy, and then we started doing the dirt ride stuff.

[00:20:55.920] - Big Rich Klein

Right. And that all started right around 2006 with Crawltex, right?

[00:21:02.780] - Cameron Chin

Yes. Yeah, 2006. So I think you started Dirtriate in what? 2010?

[00:21:10.440] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, around 2010. I think it was 2010, 2011.

[00:21:14.860] - Cameron Chin

Okay. Yeah. When that came out, I can't tell you how excited we were. I've been following Hal, his We Rock campaigns as best as he could do it and all of his fun that he was having with the Twistic Customs guys. But that was so out of what we thought was capable because we just could not afford to travel to California. When you all opened up the Dirt Riot series, man, I mean, everybody that was in the off-road community in Texas. We were just so happy to have something that was achievable and an avenue to build something cool and.

[00:21:56.840] - Big Rich Klein

Did you make any of the We Rock events that we did in spring or void?

[00:22:02.040] - Cameron Chin

I don't think I did. I made it to one in a week at Tempsey.

[00:22:06.340] - Big Rich Klein

Okay.

[00:22:08.880] - Cameron Chin

Man, I love that. But at the time, we were just still trying to stay open, so I couldn't make it to all the events that we're having.

[00:22:17.860] - Big Rich Klein

Absolutely. So shortly after getting Crawl Techs open, you went to the Baha 500 and worked race support. Who did you go down there? Oh, yeah.

[00:22:33.900] - Cameron Chin

Oh, that was a weird situation. This guy comes in that I had never met before, but he actually worked with my original boss, Jeff Davis, and he was friends of a high school friend of mine. He said, Hey, man, I am a chase truck driver for a desert team, and I can't go because I'm doing this ACL Fest stuff. Would you I'd like to go, and I had no idea what Baja was. I was just like, Okay, well, I'll go to Mexico. That sounds great. Off-road race, cool. I ended up with the Hooters branch of Texas was sponsoring a couple of race cars. I went down to Encinado with them and just fell in love with desert racing and driving fast and the whole deal.

[00:23:28.020] - Big Rich Klein

With the Hooters team?

[00:23:31.180] - Cameron Chin

Yeah, with the Hooters team, at the time, what were they racing? That first year, they called it a Class I, but honestly, it wasn't. It was like a sand car that had been converted to just barely make it race legal to race the course. And we did terrible. I think we made about 70 miles before the car wrecked and ripped a corner of it off. But it was just blast. The whole experience was amazing.

[00:24:03.060] - Big Rich Klein

You were driving the chase truck or just part of the team?

[00:24:06.960] - Cameron Chin

Yeah, I was driving this. I was 26 or 27 driving some guy's chase truck that I had met a week before. It was super, as most of the things Baja, very unorganized and chaotic, but it was just amazing at the same time.

[00:24:24.260] - Big Rich Klein

What was the best part about being down there in Baja for the 500?

[00:24:30.480] - Cameron Chin

Oh, man, I don't know. I try to explain that to people because people ask me, Hey, they ask me, You've done all these different races. Isn't KOH amazing or isn't the Met 400 amazing? I was like, Yeah, those are great. But until you go down to Mexico and experience the whole week of the event and see the culture down there and how open the people are, how much they love you, no matter... I mean, it doesn't matter if you're Dirt Pour or Andy MacMillan. If you're a racer, they just open you with arms. Open arms. People are so friendly down there. The kids love you. You give them stickers and little toys I mean, you're their hero. That's something I was just really taken by. The generosity of that country and the people down there is just amazing.

[00:25:26.140] - Big Rich Klein

It's the Wild West.

[00:25:29.380] - Cameron Chin

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's terrifying at the same time. You never know what's going to happen. Are you going to get grifted by the local police? Is someone going to try to steal your stuff? Is a cow going to jump out in front of you when you're just driving your truck and completely uproot your whole weekend?

[00:25:49.880] - Big Rich Klein

Then all that can happen in the first half an hour.

[00:25:52.800] - Cameron Chin

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that could happen during pre-running.

[00:25:57.900] - Big Rich Klein

I remember one of the first times I went down The first time I went down, I went down with BFG in 2003, and I was with one of the pit crews. And when we were in San Diego getting everything together, they said, oh, Rich, we need you to go over here and pick up a box truck we rented. And then they filled the box truck with spare tires and empty gas cans. And they said, okay, you and your son are going to drive this. We're going to caravan in. Don't stop. Just get in the caravan line and we'll stop at the... We got one of the big teams had their agents or whatever you want to call them help get us through the border crossing and through into Mexico. Because we had semi-trucks and box vans and motor homes and all sorts of things in this caravan. And then we headed first into Encinada, but where we went... God, was it... Did we go into... I forget the name of the resort south of Encinada now, the one that has a racetrack on the Coast and stuff. Anyway, I don't remember if we went there first, but we ended up at our place just outside of Cadevina on the road that goes out to Fish Camp was our pit area, and it was really wild.

[00:27:37.060] - Big Rich Klein

And just some of the stuff that happened, on the way out, we made sure that all the tires, none of the tires were in sets. They were, you put them in all hodgepodged and everything. So it wasn't easy to say, oh, these two tires are the same and on the same rims, we'll just take those. So everything was mixed up and there was fuel in one of the five-gallon cans, just a little bit left. And it said, Hall Racing. So I knew it was diesel, right? Because Rod was racing Hummer then. Okay. And we got stopped at a military checkpoint, and they're going through the box truck. I mean, and I had been told, just stand there, we'll try to get get through as quick as possible because we're all caravaning out as well, too, right? At least our pit crew. When before it was all the pits together going in. Coming out, it's just our crew. And the guy that was running the military checkpoint, he was like the lead guy. He jumps up in the back of the truck and he's asking me questions. And I'm like, I speak English. I kept asking him, English?

[00:28:58.780] - Big Rich Klein

English? And he picks up one of the cans and he holds it up like he's going to drink out of it. And as he starts to tilt it up, I see the diesel that's at the bottom of the can go down the side and hit the tube as he's holding it up. And it gets him in the face, right? And on a chest. And I mean, there's probably half a cup, maybe three, four ounces or something like that. And he got pissed. And all of his guys there at the checkpoint with their M16s, we were always told maybe they have one bullet, but they were all standing there and they were just like, oh, we're all in trouble. And he starts to flip out. And I'm thinking, All right, I'm going to jail. I don't know what's going to happen. Our pit captain comes up, and he just gets everybody out of the truck. He closed the thing, and he stands there, and he goes, Rich, get in the truck and drive away. And I'm like, What? He goes, I'll stay here and deal with this. Just get in the truck and drive away. So Little Rich and I get in the truck, and we pull off.

[00:30:15.520] - Big Rich Klein

We take off. When I see them get into their Blazer or whatever it was they were driving, and then they follow us behind. But, man, all I could think about was what the hell was going to happen when he got doused with diesel. Anything like that happened to you guys down there?

[00:30:36.980] - Cameron Chin

Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, a few things happened. I guess they're not Border Patrol. They're just like militia. I think the most terrifying thing about that, on top of, are you going to go to jail and never be seen again? A lot of those soldiers are 16-year-olds. You're sitting there going, Man, does that Can I have his finger on the trigger? Does he have gun control or any training? Or is this the end right now? But I think one of the last times I was down there racing the thousand, I I had a trailer issue happen, and my trailer ramp slid out halfway, and I didn't know it. As I'm passing an 18-wheeler, it just raped the side of this 18-wheeler. I didn't realize that I was messing his truck up. I thought the roads were just really crappy down there because there are some insane potholes. One's that will rip the oil pan right off a car if you didn't see it. We get to the next town and I'm looking at it like, Holy crap, my ramps folded over from something. I guess they had called ahead and there was in the next town a full fleet of Mexicalis in in those tacticals, the Toyotas with the machine gun on it, and a couple Hummer's waiting just to talk to us.

[00:32:08.720] - Cameron Chin

They were cool about it, but I didn't know what was going to happen. They're like, Hey, you work it out with the 18-wheeler. We don't have to take you, but you need to work this out with them. We just got all the cash we had, gave it to them, and they were cool. It was a payday for I'm sure the couple grand we gave them was way more than it would have cost to fix the 18-wheeler, but they kept us out of jail. We were happy to give it over.

[00:32:45.180] - Big Rich Klein

I've had some pretty crazy things down there with each one of the trips. It's like, Shelle and I, one time we're in Scorpion Bay, and we ran from the local police. Coming back after the thousand. I got followed from the border in Tijuana all the way. And I was always told, especially Pistol Pete, he always said, Whatever you do, don't stop. If one of the local police pull out, if it's one of the federalis in the blue cars with the white federal police down the side, stop for them, but drive straight to the toll Plaza, South of town, on one. Don't stop for the local police. And so, I mean, it was probably two blocks, and I get the guy behind me with the lights on, and I just kept driving. And that's a couple of miles to where the highway starts, the toll road. And so I pull up to the toll roll, and he just turned around and went back.

[00:34:01.580] - Cameron Chin

Oh, really?

[00:34:02.190] - Big Rich Klein

I thought, okay, Pete was right. Don't stop. Just keep going. And I just acted like nobody was behind me. But every time there's been something. I mean, we rescued an airplane one time, me and Bob Roghe and Eric Linker, Camo from Pirate. That was a crazy thing with the plane emergency landing And then up from the beach comes the military truck loaded with a bunch of 16-year-olds with rifles, and most of them didn't even have clothes on. I mean, they had like, underwear, their tidy whities and T-shirts and maybe their boots. Because, here's this plane just emergency landed in an area where the runway that was next to the highway had been bulldozed and potholed and everything else just so that planes couldn't land there. And this guy was able to land his little plane there, experimental. And it was just crazy all the shit that we've been through down there. But it is the Wild West, but the people are so nice.

[00:35:19.960] - Cameron Chin

Yeah, they really are.

[00:35:21.840] - Big Rich Klein

And then the food. I mean, if you like tacos, you can't beat it.

[00:35:26.800] - Cameron Chin

Well, I guess the food is so fresh down there. There's no It's all preservatives. It's all authentic. It's something that you can't replicate in the States.

[00:35:37.700] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, unless you shop around the outside of the shopping, the grocery store. We don't shop at the aisles, we shop around the outside. That's where all the fresh stuff is at. But yeah. So going down there or you're racing, you talk about the Rally Rally Americas? In 2008, you did some Rally stuff. I've not heard Rally America.

[00:36:08.400] - Cameron Chin

Rally America, it's a pretty grassroots organization, and I think they're still going. But it's not as crazy as W... Was it WRC in Europe? World Rally Championship? It's not that refined by any means. It's put a cage in your car, run what you've run, and they'll rent a course or some roads and make some stages. But right after that, my first Mexico race, a local guy reaches out to me and he was like, Hey, man, I'm a co- driver for a guy that raced this rally. He's a super talented guy. He's one Pikes Peak, youngest guy to ever win that. And he's He was looking for someone to co-drive with him. I meet Dave, Dave Carapatian. He's the owner of... It's right outside of Austin, Dale, Texas, the Rally Ready driving school. Okay. At that time, he meant this kid... Before he was 21, because I remember at the driver meeting, it was super terrible. Just listening to the rules, it was so boring. I was like, Hey, Dave, can you give me a couple of beers while I'm going through this? And he had basically his shoulder tapped to get me some beers because he wasn't of age.

[00:37:42.260] - Cameron Chin

But we ended up racing in El Paso. No, not El Paso. It was on north, in North Texas, right on the panhandle of Oklahoma and the border, like a Red River border. And he had a What was it? Like an Evo Lancer imported from Japan. So it was right-hand drive. And we ended up winning that rally, both stages. And that was pretty crazy because he's a really talented driver. But at that time, he has no fear. He's super young. We were probably going 120 through some trees sideways, and I had never ridden with this guy. So it was an absolute blast. But I decided that was out of my comfort zone. After that day, I was like, Man, that was a great day if I'm not your guy because I don't have any control of what's going to happen with my life in the seat. It just feels a little bit more than I want to sign up for. That was the end of that.

[00:38:50.050] - Big Rich Klein

That was Dave Brown?

[00:38:52.160] - Cameron Chin

Dave Carapatian.

[00:38:53.270] - Big Rich Klein

Oh, Dave. Okay.

[00:38:55.120] - Cameron Chin

He has done a lot of stuff, actually. He's built like, not Tony, Bucky, Lasics, Subaru. He won the Baja 1000 with the 3 bears racing team in the 6100. A couple of years ago, he sent a lot of different things.

[00:39:15.380] - Big Rich Klein

Cool. So let's talk about your first trip to KOH.

[00:39:22.840] - Cameron Chin

Oh, man. Koh. I really... People love KOH, and I get it if you've never been to KOH or if you've never been to anything else. But the first time I went, I was just a wallfly. Hal was friends with Jason Pauley. So that was in the early days where they were still racing with Twista Customs, and I got to hang out with them while they were transitioning from XRRA to King of the Hammer stuff. So they ran in the house, and I got to hang out with them and meet a lot of those guys and just pit for them. I still wanted to race. I hadn't really driven at that time, so I was excited to be around anything motor sports, but it was really freaking cold, and I wasn't sure if that's what I wanted to do. In 2012, is that the first time I raced it? I think 2012, I was a co-dog for a buddy of mine that was racing side-by-side, and we were doing pretty well on that. That was when the XP1000 just had come out, and he had owned, at the time, Razor Forms. And so he got Somebody hired him.

[00:40:48.060] - Cameron Chin

He was basically a hard gun to drive one of the two cars that they had put together. That was a disaster. We got there and the car was not prepped. It was not finished because they were focusing on the other car. So we got back together as best we could and started the race. And we're actually leading the race for the first... We probably had a 40-minute lead on everybody, on all the classes, because when we broke and the car exploded, right at the first rock section, we lost both axles, one from the front, one from the rear, so we couldn't move. It took about 40 minutes before Mitch Guthrie came by and passed us. Then we had to watch every car that we had just taken out, just passed us, and it was a super long day. But But yeah, the King of the Hammers, I'm not that interested in ever going back, to be honest with you. That's not my deal. I know that's probably something that you would not expect someone to say, I've done it twice. I raced it in a 4,500 car, made it 70 miles in that, and that's probably enough for me.

[00:42:10.820] - Cameron Chin

It's just become such a circus. I'm not really interested in being out there in the dust and cold and all the shenanigans that are going on nowadays, especially the last couple of years that it's gotten so big.

[00:42:24.720] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, I agree. Everybody knows that I'm the same way. I'm pretty vocal about my goal is never to have to go back to KOH. I love Johnson Valley, but I do not want to ever go back to KOH. I have absolutely no desire.

[00:42:40.640] - Cameron Chin

If they could do that event when it's warmer, I would maybe entertain it.

[00:42:46.220] - Big Rich Klein

I don't think I would. Maybe if I was 20 years younger, but I have no tolerance for just about anything that goes on out there.

[00:42:58.600] - Cameron Chin

Yeah. I mean, all the shenanigans, the fighting, and the people just ramming each other with their trucks, that's out of control. It just makes us all look like a bunch of idiots. I can understand why people use that for fuel, for land closure stuff.

[00:43:13.660] - Big Rich Klein

Right. Exactly. Exactly. And then there's other personal reasons, but we won't get into those. So let's talk about the shops. You're working, Crawl Tech By the time you decided to open Nefarious and go to Vegas, were you a single owner then, or were you still in partnership?

[00:43:39.440] - Cameron Chin

I was. Yeah, everyone had gone their own way, and and decided to do other things, but I wanted to keep the shop open. It was just finally at that point where I wasn't having to sell a car once a year to keep the doors open. Things were going pretty well. Then I ended up meeting Rebecca, and she moved to Austin to be with me but couldn't find a job in her profession. She's a NICU doctor. She had just done so much schooling and so many sacrifices to come up to that level in her profession. I was like, You know what? There's no way that our marriage is going to last if you're driving an hour and a half to Tyler or Kaleen to work and then an hour and a half home every day. We're just never going to see each other. There was not too many places in the United States that have NICUs. There were only 3,000 hospitals at the time, nationwide. One of the ones that was hiring was in Las Vegas. I was like, Hey, that's potentially a place where someone in my industry could do really well. And there's the racing aspect of the proximity.

[00:45:02.760] - Cameron Chin

I was pretty excited about that. We ended up shutting Crawl Techs down and moving to Vegas. I just started over and figured out how to make it work.

[00:45:16.100] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, and you did, and you have.

[00:45:19.200] - Cameron Chin

I was thinking about before you called how crazy this whole career has been. In June, it will be 20 years that I have been working on cars for a living. Growing under my own brand. It's been really fortunate. I've met a lot of amazing people like yourself that have been super supportive and helped me figure things out. A lot of different opportunities have come up. At the time, Vegas was pretty hot. It's not so hot right now with the economy and no one spending money out on the West Coast. But back then it was in 2012 when we moved. It took me a while because there were so many shops out there already established. But after a year or two, we finally started getting some work. Then I was able to hire a lot of talented people that knew more about different things that just weren't in my wheelhouse. We shifted from off road to more restomod and desert racing stuff together and had a shop that could do a lot more in-house than most I guess.

[00:46:31.480] - Big Rich Klein

Right. I know that at first you were in what I'd call, what would it be, East. Your shop was more East, Las Vegas, closer to the Air Force base in the Raceway?

[00:46:46.990] - Cameron Chin

Oh, man. Yeah. I had no idea the geography. When I signed the lease, it was in a really bad part of town. We'd hear gunshots in the middle of the day, on a Tuesday while I'm working. It was not great. As soon as I figured out where Butch's Speed Shop was, I decided, Hey, I need to be in an area that's closer to that because there's going to be more people that I'm interested in meeting in the area. That's when we moved closer to the Rader Stadium.

[00:47:19.480] - Big Rich Klein

Then we did a meet and greet there with Forlo magazine.

[00:47:26.620] - Cameron Chin

Yes, that location. That was pretty cool. I didn't realize we picked a day that Yukon was also having their party, but it was still fun.

[00:47:35.680] - Big Rich Klein

We still had a good turnout.

[00:47:37.520] - Cameron Chin

We did. It was cool seeing people like Bender show up and different people in the off-road community.

[00:47:44.780] - Big Rich Klein

I still thought it went well. Who's Yukon anyway? They just make gears.

[00:47:50.560] - Cameron Chin

Oh, well, now they're nobody. Yeah, you buy their stuff on Amazon now. Exactly. Joey has a pretty interesting opinion about them because he worked with them for so many years. It's like, man, they're undercutting their people that they sell to, the wholesalers. But what are you going to do?

[00:48:14.320] - Big Rich Klein

That is what happens when things get too big.

[00:48:19.440] - Cameron Chin

Yeah.

[00:48:21.780] - Big Rich Klein

But that's their business. How was it working in Las Vegas doing Restomods and getting into... I mean, you guys did some really wild stuff.

[00:48:39.260] - Cameron Chin

I had never been in a city that people spent that much money on their cars, and that was so refreshing. Austin is not the best place for custom cars because it's just a different demographic there. Everyone's real techy, and they're not so much into their vehicles. But In Vegas, they are. I'm not talking about just the guys that are running Lambo's for a weekend. The guys that are there, you know how much it costs a desert race. I mean, those guys. Millions. But they'll They also have toys. When they're not racing, they're driving a classic car or a classic truck, and they don't want a new one. They want something that's unique. We're able to put a lot of the a newer technology in an older vehicle and make it handle where you still want to drive it. That's where we ended up shifting since we could do paint and body and house, electrical, motor swaps, chassis stuff. We're able to just build better cars. I think there's a lot of opportunity in Texas because people spend a lot of money on their toys here, too.

[00:49:55.920] - Big Rich Klein

Especially Houston area.

[00:49:58.660] - Cameron Chin

Yeah, definitely Houston area. Now that I've been here a year, I realized what an opportunity it really is. The drive-by traffic, the people I'm just meeting in everyday conversations that have not one car, they got 10 cars, and they're all interesting.

[00:50:20.360] - Big Rich Klein

Right. Any pretty cool projects that you're working on now that that are unique?

[00:50:34.720] - Cameron Chin

I'm building... Let's see.

[00:50:37.480] - Big Rich Klein

That you can talk about.

[00:50:39.220] - Cameron Chin

Yeah.

[00:50:39.600] - Big Rich Klein

I know people get really... Sometimes they get really, Hey, I don't want nobody knowing that this is getting done.

[00:50:48.600] - Cameron Chin

Oh, yeah, no doubt. Well, in Houston, we're building a few scouts for a friend of mine, and they're all going to be frame off restorations, but with new LS motor or LTE motors, and 10 speed, automatic, and all that whole deal, coil overs. We took one to see him the last year, and it's almost done at the interior shop now. I think he's going to play with it for a little bit, and then probably put it up for sale. I'm building a Porsche, a 68 Targa for my dad, and that's going to be all tube, chassis, and LS-Swap. Let's see, what else do we got? We've got a 54-panel wagon in here that's a Restomod on a 4x4 chassis. I'm picking up a '67 Camaro we're going to build on a roadster shop chassis next week. That'll be a fun one because we just finished a '69 in Vegas. That was a two-year build. Now I know all the challenges we're going to have to face before building his. Then Joey up there in Austin, he's building a '49 F1 pickup on a TCI chassis with a Godzilla motor. That's probably going to be a pretty nasty little hot rod.

[00:52:14.060] - Big Rich Klein

I got a pre-approval from Shelle to when I do... If I ever lose the 6. 2 in my 2012 raptor, then I get to do a Godzilla.

[00:52:26.360] - Cameron Chin

It's a pretty cool motor, and it's not that big. You You would think it's big, but dimensionally, it's not that much bigger than an LS.

[00:52:34.740] - Big Rich Klein

Right. And they can take a lot of horsepower stock.

[00:52:39.640] - Cameron Chin

They can. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:52:43.580] - Big Rich Klein

So having the shop, Vegas still open, and then the shops, you got a new shop, Crawl Techs, and then you still have nefarious customs in down there in the Houston area, I'll say, which is all like a state on its own. How much have you bitten off? And are you really able to chew it all?

[00:53:14.000] - Cameron Chin

Sometimes I feel like I am way over my head. Absolutely. Luckily, with the one in Austin, Joey's there to run that one every day. We had one of our great guys from Vegas move out to Austin. So he's doing the work there. I've got a great team in Vegas that I trust, and I fly back and forth to that one once Probably one week a month, I'm out there to meet with them and meet with customers. But I'm trying to stay home in Houston and just spend more time with my family. That was one thing I've always had guilt about, is how much time it's away from the kids to run these things. We moved here in '19. Right before COVID, my wife got a job opportunity in Houston, so we moved back here to be closer to family. I've been flying back and forth since then. Now that the shop's open in Sealy, Wallace, Sealy area, I'm here probably three weeks out of the month in the Houston area.

[00:54:30.000] - Big Rich Klein

How old are your kids now?

[00:54:33.100] - Cameron Chin

Seven and 10.

[00:54:34.170] - Big Rich Klein

Seven and 10. You got two boys, right?

[00:54:36.420] - Cameron Chin

Yeah, Oliver and Gavin. Okay.

[00:54:40.080] - Big Rich Klein

Are they into cars?

[00:54:43.460] - Cameron Chin

Oliver wants to help, but I don't think he's really into it. Gavin wants to drive. He told me this year, he had a... What did they do? Those inspiration boards in school or goal. I don't know what you call them, but one of his goals was to drive a race car, and I was like, Wow, that's freaking awesome. I'm going to have to definitely encourage him any way I can on that. Mike's got a kid who works with me in Houston. He's got a kid about the same age. We're going to try to build him trophy carts and put something together so they can rip around the property out here. If that goes well, we'll probably be trophy cart dads and doing that whole deal The money is in the in carts, the regular karting. Oh, man. Yeah, I don't...

[00:55:42.160] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, there's a ton. I get you into F1 and NASCAR and IndyCar.

[00:55:48.240] - Cameron Chin

That is true. That is true. Man, but you're in $20,000 to $40,000 in a go-cart. It's hard for me to... It's really hard for me to do that. But yeah, I know there's definitely a lot of cool stuff with the go-cards. What about the kids rock-crawing stuff? Do you think that's going to take off?

[00:56:09.080] - Big Rich Klein

It has, depending on Where the biggest problem is we tried to make it so that it was an even playing field. And of course, everybody wants to build their absolute own design. And basically, they want to take a full size single seat Moon Buggy and then fit their kid into it by moving the pedals, moving the steering wheel, raising the seat a little bit, whatever. Instead of building an 80 % car. And I thought, if you're going to start kids often in rock crawlers, they need to be size specific, just like the trophy carts, just like carting. Get people started, get the kids started in things that they can actually handle instead of just dropping a six year old into a full-size Jesse Haynes portal car. And now I can see when the kids get older, that 11 to 12 year old, then typically they're already... They've got car control. They're in a bigger car. You can go do get into those unlimited cars. But there was a couple of guys out there that were making the 80 % chassis that we're doing. But the problem was, is getting them then to get their kids competing.

[00:57:48.520] - Big Rich Klein

And the Browns did a really good job getting both Gunner and Wyatt competing. And they got a lot of recognition. They got sponsorships. People really were excited about it in the business. And then they got into changing cars and getting into other sports and stuff like that. And now they're getting back into into buggies, I think, again. It'll be interesting to see where it goes. I think it's a great spot. We always will have a spot open for the kids to come out, even if it's just one or two at a time. But I I really think that it's a great way to get kids started, to learn to control a car that they're actually... That they can command, not one that they just... You've fitted them into it. It's be like taking a 10-year-old and saying, Okay, here, get into this NASCAR, and we're going to slow you down a little bit, but we're not going to... You're still going to get to go 150, 160 miles an hour. That's ridiculous. Yeah. And everybody wants to build that car for their kid. And it's like, I don't agree with that. But if a kid can show car control, and we have some kids now that are competing that started off when they were 13, 14 years old that are now seniors in high school or have graduated that are just phenomenal drivers, and some that are still young enough, that are still young in that teenage years that are just phenomenal drivers.

[00:59:41.620] - Big Rich Klein

It's harder for the older guys to actually beat some of these young kids, like the Dickies or the Brazzaninis. There's a lot of talent there. A lot of talent.

[00:59:57.160] - Cameron Chin

Right on.

[00:59:57.900] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah.

[00:59:59.040] - Cameron Chin

Well, I thought about doing We definitely tossed the idea of building a kid chassis for our kids, and then it worked out and somebody wanted to commission something like that, build some more for other kids. It's definitely something we're going to consider. Hopefully, we can get some free time to work on our family stuff, too.

[01:00:21.480] - Big Rich Klein

That's always a juggling act.

[01:00:26.040] - Cameron Chin

Absolutely.

[01:00:27.820] - Big Rich Klein

What's in the future? What do you see What's going to be happening in 10 years?

[01:00:32.940] - Cameron Chin

In 10 years? That is a great question. Well, now that I'm here in Houston and see how much possibility there is with the Porsche community, Well, I've definitely peaked. My interest is peaked in that because there's not a lot of fabricators in Houston that are doing automotive stuff. Mostly, they're off-road stuff. There's a lot of great shops that do Crawlers and Raptors and different stuff. But since there's not that many places, you've got Ketempsey, you've got Wolfs Caves, you've got a few of these off-road parks here that are still pretty good. But I was having this conversation with Sean yesterday because he just got a portal buggy from... I'm not sure if it was a Jesse Haynes portal or who built that jacce. But he's in that portal I was like, Man, what is the demographic right now at Ketempsey? He was like, You know. He was scared that there's not a lot of young people in off-roading anymore. It's been mostly buggy guys. Which is fine. It's just a very finite group of customer base. When you got that many shops across the United States competing for those few customers, I'm probably not that guy.

[01:01:58.910] - Cameron Chin

You know what I mean? I I enjoy building buggies, but that's not sustainable for me. I'm looking more towards the restomod stuff and possibly getting into the Porsche work and seeing where that goes.

[01:02:15.000] - Big Rich Klein

Awesome. Sports cars, nothing wrong with that.

[01:02:18.480] - Cameron Chin

There's always- Yeah, there's just more people driving them. Yeah, absolutely. There's a bigger pool.

[01:02:24.120] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, there's a new event coming up that Emily Miller, who started the Rebell, the women's navigational rally, is doing a rally this year called Trinity. And it's going to be in Northern California, and it's going to end at Sonoma Raceway with a track day. And Shelle and I will be participating in that more as staff, but that's how we like to participate in things. We like to get dirty, nitty-gritty type That's very cool. That's going to be interesting to look at because it's not just a women's-based thing. It's for anybody, and it's more sports cars, road cars.

[01:03:12.900] - Cameron Chin

Have you heard of any rumors about any more off-road events, like off-road racing stuff, more central?

[01:03:19.640] - Big Rich Klein

Yes, I have. I don't know how far it's going to go, but I do believe that there will be some opportunities coming up shortly, especially at Escondido Draa, recreational area. That's part of the TMTC. I haven't been out there yet to look at the park, but now as the executive director of TMTC, I'll be making my first trip out there on the 20th of March. And I'm really looking forward to looking at that park. I think it's got great potential for some of the more the Dirtriot style, Ultra Four style off-road events. Oh, wow. But I think it also has some good possibility for training grounds for the Rebell and possibly some Overland Expo type stuff. And I think that between the size of that park park and the terrain, I think it's going to be a great location for those events. So that's one of the things that I hope to bring to that park.

[01:04:45.440] - Cameron Chin

I can't tell you how excited I was to read about you taking that position with TMTC. It's been interesting watching it, how things have shaped in Texas. We've never had really strong leadership and someone with your connections to make things happen in that organization. At least that's how I felt because it never really grew past Barnwell Mountain, as far as I'm aware. It seemed like that was it. So to have new opportunities like that, that's going to be fantastic for the off-road community.

[01:05:21.740] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, I believe that's the case. It's a really interesting way to bring parks to the people. Texas has almost no public lands. So everything is, of course, private property and ranches and that stuff, like Kitempsey and Wolf Caves and even Hidden Falls. And those parks are great. But they're limited in what they allow. Barnwell, you can get any vehicle out there. Escondido is set up for the same thing. You can ride motor cycles, quads, side-by-side, jeeps, buggies, whatever. And I think that there's the opportunity for more parks like that as we investigate more property that's available. And working off of the OHV gas tax funds federally, and then directed through the demand, and then the funds feed into Texas Parks and Wildlife, and then down into TMTC and other organizations. We're pretty much the one that's pushing the motorized side, but there's also non-motorized grant money available. And there's going to be a lot of opportunities, not just in Texas, but I think in a lot of the Eastern states, where there is very little public lands like out West. I don't know if this model works in the West yet, but I think you're going to start seeing more of it as the environmental movement starts to clamp down more and more and more, that you're going to see some of those private lands become public lands as ranches and large properties go up for sale, that hopefully more programs like we're doing with TMTC can happen nationwide.

[01:07:49.620] - Cameron Chin

Oh, that's awesome. Is it the Escondido? Are you talking about the area near Dallas or the partner Ozone?

[01:07:55.280] - Big Rich Klein

Ozone. Escondido Draw. That's part of that TMTC. That's the two parks currently under TMTC. There is a third park that's in the works that I really can't talk about right now, but it's more of a motocross type facility that eventually will become part of the fold. And then we're always still looking for other possible properties to acquire so that we can turn them into public parks.

[01:08:28.540] - Cameron Chin

Very cool.

[01:08:29.300] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah. So hopefully we can get you guys out there.

[01:08:33.860] - Cameron Chin

Oh, yeah. No, absolutely. We're in. Cool. Yeah, for sure. If there's an event, I can call the old Dirtriate guys and say, Hey, time to dust it off, man. Let's get it back together and go out there and beat on our cars.

[01:08:49.340] - Big Rich Klein

Hopefully, some of those are still sitting there under a tarp somewhere.

[01:08:53.460] - Cameron Chin

Oh, they are. I know Tony's car is rusting in his barn. Darryl gray has got a couple of buggies. Darryl, I think he's got a buggy as well.

[01:09:02.840] - Big Rich Klein

There you go. Is Carl Langerhans still has his?

[01:09:07.720] - Cameron Chin

I think so, yeah. I think he still has his brave motorsports car.

[01:09:11.280] - Big Rich Klein

There we go. Shit, we got one class right there.

[01:09:14.560] - Cameron Chin

Yeah.

[01:09:17.320] - Big Rich Klein

Well, cool. Cameron, I want to say thank you so much for being a guest on Conversations with Big Rich and sharing your life and your history and what you got going on. And if anybody is in the Vegas area, anybody in Texas that's looking for custom work, and you got to check out Nefarious Customs website. They've got some really cool builds on there. And I'm still going to bring you my Cherokee, the V8 build Cherokee. It's almost streetable. Oh, wow. And then I need to get a nice hybrid cage made so I can get in and out of it, but still be safe. I don't know which location I'll bring it to, but that'll be up to you. I'm looking forward to getting that done.

[01:10:11.260] - Cameron Chin

Well, hey, I look forward to seeing it. And thank you for always being so open arms. I always felt like the Offer community was just an amazing group of people, but you and Cheli have always made us all feel like family. That's why we always wanted to race your series and be involved with anything you guys are I think.

[01:10:30.740] - Big Rich Klein

Well, that's awesome to say. Thank you so much. All right. Well, you have a great day. Say hello to the family for me, and can't wait to see you all.

[01:10:41.920] - Cameron Chin

Yeah, I will. Thanks, Rich.

[01:10:43.260] - Big Rich Klein

All right. You take care. Bye-bye. Well, that's another episode of Conversations with Big Rich. I'd like to thank you all for listening. If you could do us a favor and leave us a review on any podcast service that you happen to be listening on, or send us an email or a text message or a Facebook message, and let me know any ideas that you have, or if there's anybody that you have that you think would be a great guest, please forward the contact information to me so that we can try to get them on. And always remember, live life to the fullest. Enjoying life is a must. Follow your dreams and live life with all the gusto you can. Thank you.